Phantome Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) Hi everyone, My latest 2019 project over the last few months has been to work on a series of "one-stop" guides to color and camouflage, the idea being to summarize what we know about the most important schemes and list all the appropriate model paints for those colors. At first I thought this would be a quick, couple-days-work kind of thing until I realized 1) what a minefield things like the right shade of Olive Drab or Malta Spitfires are 2) how little I actually knew about it! (I'm almost embarrassed to say that before writing this I assumed all US interior cockpits were in ANA 611). The result has been months of research and work into this but I am happy to say that the first few are in good enough shape to share with you all. For World War II, I currently have four guides ready: RAF - http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/resource.php?r=camo_rafww2 FAA (*NEW*) - http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/resource.php?r=cam_rnfaa USAAF - http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/resource.php?r=camo_usaaf USN - http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/resource.php?r=camo_usn The USN guide includes modern aircraft as well. The curious ones among you will also notice that I have a USAF one already done as well although that one is still in draft form as I'm still researching it. (There's also a modern Soviet/Russian one which I will post in the relevant sub-forum). On that note, feel free to roam around the site, there's tons of interesting stuff and I've been working on it in some form or another for the past 20 years but because I never finish it, I never end up promoting it. Anyway, I really hope this helps people and by all means, PM me if you notice some glaring error. Edited January 13, 2020 by Phantome 16 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fewr9fkr9595 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Those are really good from what I have read so far mate. Also thanks for the link back to here on the tps paint comparison aswell 👌🏽 Will pm you about a few questions I have. Tony 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Wow! That's awesome! Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 I'm liking, after a quick shufti, I'm seeing none that leap out at me as being inaccurate. It strikes me as a good effort, well done that man. Steve. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprue Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 This is just what I was looking for, very helpful especily lease lend RAF which is not my comfort zone. Many thanks Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt-92 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 That's awesome work, can't imagine the amount of time that took. (just a small nitpick: the USAF section needs a search & replace action with regards to the Corsair II which is quoted as an A-6D ) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Nice work, although I think your FS15042 equivalence to wartime Sea Blues rather than the 1947 revision to ANA623 is back-to-front. Also, whilst not intentional ANA606 was a distinct hue from ANA607. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnl42 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Nice work! One bit of info I've picked up, which seems consistent with your Night discussion, is the suitability of Mr Color "Cowling Color" C125 as an alternate. I find Tire Black C137 to be distinctly gray. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Wow phantome, top work 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seawinder Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Very nice presentation, thanks! At least for me, the USN links for mid-war and early Vietnam war don't seem to function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPuente54 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 A great effort, while there are probably some errors in your work(show any one who has researched a subject who doesn't have an error big-or-small in it) you have also set it up to correct any such without problems. Your listing of the paints that match the colors is an excellent thing. Thank you for your work; these are great quick references. I look forward to your Soviet/Russian colors in the future. Again, thanks! Joe 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody37 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 This is fantastic and would make a great stickie for the wwii section. @Julien, can we add this to the useful links sticky at the top? thanks 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 6 minutes ago, woody37 said: This is fantastic and would make a great stickie for the wwii section. @Julien, can we add this to the useful links sticky at the top? thanks Done 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody37 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 1 minute ago, Julien said: Done Thanks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cngaero Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 Stunning work. Thank you so much for sharing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantome Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 15 hours ago, alt-92 said: That's awesome work, can't imagine the amount of time that took. (just a small nitpick: the USAF section needs a search & replace action with regards to the Corsair II which is quoted as an A-6D ) Thanks! Will correct that in a bit. The USAF page is still in draft form so there's probably quite a number of errors/typos still Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantome Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 11 hours ago, dnl42 said: Nice work! One bit of info I've picked up, which seems consistent with your Night discussion, is the suitability of Mr Color "Cowling Color" C125 as an alternate. I find Tire Black C137 to be distinctly gray. I was not aware of C125 existing but you are right, it should be identical to Night. Will correct that too. Thanks! In fairness to Tire Black, I tend to prefer black-grays for painting large fuselage sections in black. Allows you more leeway for shading (plus there's scale effect) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fubar57 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 (edited) Thank you very much. Unless someone comes up with a Wayback Machine and holds colour chips up to actual WW2 aircraft and photographs them, I go with the hand grenades, A-bombs, horseshoes, close enough for me camp Edited January 3, 2020 by fubar57 Freakin' negative typos man 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Mackenzie Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 (edited) n/m Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantome Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Mark Mackenzie said: The RAF document contains a seious flaw. The term "Tropical Land Scheme" was the name used to describe the colour scheme of Dark Earth and Light Earth, not as you have written. It is the name used pre-war in the trials by RAF/RAE and it also appears in documentation between RAE and Air Ministry in 1941. No where in publushed documents is the term used to desribe the scheme Light Earth/Dark Green which was a colour scheme proposed by RAE for India in 1936 and again in 1941 by RAE for RAF vehicles in India (but not adopted). Hi Mark, I actually read nearly all of the threads on the Tropical Land Scheme here on BM before writing that section, including the ones in which you participated in and which invariably ended with some rather heated discussions. Suffice to say that what I wrote is the best synthesis of the most compelling evidence from each side, none of which is evidently 100% conclusive and hence why I mention on numerous occasions that all that information is speculative. The point of my page is not to be the last word on camouflage controversies. The point is to make it easy for modelers to find the right paints regardless of which side on those controversies they take. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Mackenzie Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 (edited) On 1/4/2020 at 11:46 AM, Phantome said: Hi Mark, I actually read nearly all of the threads on the Tropical Land Scheme here on BM before writing that section, including the ones in which you participated in and which invariably ended with some rather heated discussions. Suffice to say that what I wrote is the best synthesis of the most compelling evidence from each side, none of which is evidently 100% conclusive and hence why I mention on numerous occasions that all that information is speculative. The point of my page is not to be the last word on camouflage controversies. The point is to make it easy for modelers to find the right paints regardless of which side on those controversies they take. Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie re-reda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 And another good and useful topic is about to be locked down or deleted because someone has got their shorts in a twist over some old documents that they think is/was/maybe accurate. If you think Phantome's posting is inaccurate, start your own and please leave this one alone. It's about hobby paint for scale model aircraft. Lighten up! Chris 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantome Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 45 minutes ago, Mark Mackenzie said: There is no controversy involved. Can you please point me to the post where it says that Tropical Land Scheme = Dark Green and Mid Stone? I have re-read all the documentation in those threads and realised that no where does it say that. On the other hand, there is direct communication between RAE and Air Minisitry where the terminology "Tropical Land Scheme" refers to Dark Earth and Light Earth. I see no reason to drop this unless you have a clear source? If you have a clear source saying otherwise please make that clear in your summary because I can not see one listed. The point is that you are just spreading and contributing to something that is not correct, and I am now pointing that error out to you. A.513/41, paragraph 3 ii, later defined as 'Tropical Land Scheme' in Appendix I of A.687/41 This is literally what I wrote on the site: Confusion subsequently arises from the fact that from 12 December 1940 (AMO A.926/40), aircraft from the Middle East Command were allowed to substitute the Dark Green from the Temperate Land Scheme for Middle Stone (frequently referred to as Midstone). Compared to Light Earth, Middle Stone was only slightly darker but with a characteristic mustard-like tone, but being a new color (it existed in the earlier BS 381C palette but not for RAF use) it likely took a few months before it became widespread, leaving Light Earth as the default. This would appear to have been the first iteration of what later would be the Desert Scheme although at the time the scheme was not named. However, this combination did not last long. From 10 July 1941 (AMO A.513/41), aircraft abroad were authorized to use Middle Stone and Dark Green instead. However, this appears to have been a mistake by the Air Ministry and corrections were issued shortly thereafter although it is likely that some aircraft were indeed camouflaged this way (Air Ministry orders were not always followed to the letter, much less lower order corrections). A month later, on 28 August (AMO A.687/41), this scheme was formally named the Tropical Land Scheme. There is nothing remotely there that says that without question an aircraft on XX date must have worn certain colors. I understand from other threads that you believe that just because a correction was issued a while later, that it is unlikely that any aircraft would have been painted that way and others disagree. I am attempting to strike a balance to both arguments by specifically stating that a correction was made and that there is still a possibility that some aircraft may have been painted DE/MS. If that doesn't satisfy you, sorry, but like I said above: this is not a thread in which I want to have a heated discussion on color controversies which I am sensing by your tone is what you are looking for. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantome Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 23 hours ago, fubar57 said: Thank you very much. Unless someone comes up with a Wayback Machine and holds colour chips up to actual WW2 aircraft and photographs them, I go with the hand grenades, A-bombs, horseshoes, close enough for me camp Even then, most planes in real life won't look like the color chips! Modeling is definitely an issue of making it look good enough in my book... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantome Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 (edited) On 1/2/2020 at 9:20 AM, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said: Nice work, although I think your FS15042 equivalence to wartime Sea Blues rather than the 1947 revision to ANA623 is back-to-front. Also, whilst not intentional ANA606 was a distinct hue from ANA607. Hi Jamie, I got the information about ANA606/607 from a comment by Nick Millman here, where he states that the difference is not on hue but on reflectivity which would make sense to me. If you have a reference that says otherwise, do share it so I can make mention of both claims on the page https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234936069-sbd-5-dauntless-colour-scheme/&do=findComment&comment=1259160 As for the FS15042 reference... I understand that it superseded the post-war ANA 623 but here is where I have digressed somewhat from the experts. From personal observation, I have found that the GSB seen on Korean war / 1950s aircraft is noticeably bluer and lighter than the wartime version. Granted, you will probably find a photo where it is very dark... just as you will find a wartime photo where it is blue enough. However, there are tones of blue seen on some post-war planes that just seem completely out of place for a wartime aircraft. I came from this conclusion not by finding just one photo that was "too blue" but a huge amount. I feel this blue is closer to 15044 (insignia blue) than it is to 15042, which might be why all companies stopped painting the insignia blues by then (as opposed to just Grumman in WW2... and only on some aircraft). See this post: http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2012/06/sea-blue-vs-insignia-blue.html And both wartime and post-war aircraft here: https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Corsair/F4U-Corsair.html In contrast, FS 15042 is very dark, at least based on the XYZ values from FED-STD-595C. And has a gray-greenish hue. To my eyes at least, it looks like the wartime shade much more than the post-war one. Perhaps the color chips are more similar to the post-war, unfortunately I have never seen them. But I do trust mine eyes and I did score a 0 on this (highest score) so I have reason to believe I have something going for this bold claim! https://www.pantone.com/color-intelligence/color-education/color-iq-test As for the paints, I typically use Gunze and I recently painted a Corsair and Hellcat with Gunze H54 ("Midnight Blue") and they looked perfect. I have also painted post-war corsairs in Tamiya and Xtracrylix and both look better to me for the post-war color (Xtracrylix in particular). I cannot comment on my observations on Colourcoats as I have not used them but kudos for being the only one to offer more than just 1-2 shades. Suffice to say, this particular Corsair painted with the old Aeromaster colors looks spot on for a wartime color, and the contrast with the insignia blue looks almost exactly like one pic of an F4U-4 that I have on my page. https://modelingmadness.com/review/allies/us/usn/garf4ubt.htm Edited January 4, 2020 by Phantome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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