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tain²

Bader's hurricane

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Hi,

i wish you a Happy new year and very profitable modeling time

 

I am  working on airfix hurricane, and i would like to represent the Bader plane LE - D  (serial V7467)

I have the  xtradecal decals on hand, and according to thus, the plane doesn't wear RAF Roundel  on underwing

Hasegawa  notice shows a airplane with underwing roundel

who's get right?

i cannot find real picture of LE-D plane

 

thanks to all                                                          

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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While it might not be definitive, in all the paintings that Robert Taylor did of Bader's Hurricanes, he showed the lower roundels. The reason this matters is that the paintings were done with the assistance and concurrence of Bader himself. He (apparently) was quite a stickler for accuracy, and had to approve of the accuracy of the image - one story is that he had Robert Taylor re-do a complete canvass of his Spitfire and Adolf Galland's BF-109E because "I would never have allowed him on my tail like that!"  

 

 

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2 hours ago, tain² said:

I am  working on airfix hurricane, and i would like to represent the Bader plane LE - D  (serial V7467)

I have the  xtradecal decals on hand, and according to thus, the plane doesn't wear RAF Roundel  on underwing

Hasegawa  notice shows a airplane with underwing roundel

who's get right?

 

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

It varied at different times.

To expand on Graham's point,  underwing roundels were removed in June 1940 when Sky underside were ordered, and reintroduced from early August 1940 (with subsequent variations on sizes)  so it will depend when you are modelling the plane, and when it was built and delivered. 

there is a very useful monograph on Hurricane markings here

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings/03-Hawker-Hurricane

which will explain in more detail.  See top right.

Hawker%20Hurricane%20Camo%20&%20Marks_Pa

 

Also, looking in the 1990 FK Mason Hurricane book

V7467, 111Sq North Weald 10--40, 242 Sq Duxford 12-40

Is this is right, then when with 242 Sq,  it would have the scheme with the Black port wing introduced in Nov 1940, Sky spinner and band.

 

There are pics of Bader and 242 Sq, with a black spinner and no sky band, and no visible serial.  

these 

800px-Squadron_Leader_Douglas_Bader_with

1024px-thumbnail.jpg

800px-Squadron_Leader_Douglas_Bader,_CO_

given the same clothes in the above, all taken at the same time.

 

I would suggest that the above are not V7467,  and that someone has assumed that it is.  You might be better off asking if anyone knows what the serial of the above plane actually is?    If you are lucky, Bader's logbook will have the serial for Sep/oct 1940, the two dates given for the above photos. A quick google is not turning up an answer.

EDIT from http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/541/The-Crossroads-of-Courage.aspx

Quote

Squadron Leader Douglas Bader (Centre), the commander of 242 Canadian Squadron, RAF and two of his most gifted pilots (Flying Officer George Eric Ball (right) and Pilot Officer Willie McKnight) ponder the new squadron nose art depicting a shiny black 242 Squadron flying boot kicking Adolf Hitler in the keester. The artwork was painted on both sides of 242 Squadron Hurricanes. In this particular Hurricane (P3061) which was Bader’s, the commander scored six victories. 

 

OK, this

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/X48144

 

I can tell you personally about a thread on here (now gone)  about the creating of this and the other 75th anniversary sheet.  You really had to hammer detail points into the designer to get it across. 

Looking at this now,  V7467 is not going to be the July plane, and the A-LK scheme is still wrong,  missing the nose fin flash, and showing the brighter roundel colours that Gloster is supposed to have finished Hurricanes in.

there is a photo showing a Hurricane with quite likely a brighter wing roundel and A-LK in flight, with darker roundels and fin flash...

 

I'd personally would not trust either Hasegawa or Xtradecal on getting the detail right.

 

Did Bader pick 'D'  for Douglas i wonder? 

 

HTH

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http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/APS.HTM

 

Looking at the above production blocks, I calculate airframe V7467 would not have been ready for delivery until around October 6 1940 - assuming work continued on weekends and serials/blocks were released in descending order.

  
*Aircraft deliveries commenced on the 2nd July,
*1940 Average rate of production about two aircraft per day


Serial Range
V7200 - V7209 (10 -2)  ÷2 = 4
V7221 - V7260 (40),   ÷2 = 20
V7276 - V7318 (43),   ÷2 = 21
V7337 - V7386 (50),   ÷2 = 25
 V7400 - V7446 (47),   ÷2 = 23
 V7461 - V7467 (7)  ÷2 = 3
_____________________________
total production days (after first two delivered) = 96

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

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As an aside, which propeller type do folks think LE-D has in the photos? The spinner doesn't look like a standard Rotol type to me, which if I remember correctly has a diameter slighly larger than the front end of the cowling. Interested in people's views.

 

Justin

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The photos show it to be the Spitfire Rotol, which is indeed wider than than the nose front. This can be seen clearly in the middle photo.

 

It rather depends what you mean by "standard". The most common Rotol prop/spinner seen on Hurricanes in this period, yes.  The intended Rotol spinner for the Hurricane, which became the only one used very shortly after, no.

 

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Thanks Graham,  now I know what I'm looking for, I can see it. In the top photo I think I can see a fair bit of spinner backplate protruding from the side. 

 

Justin

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7 minutes ago, Bedders said:

now I know what I'm looking for, I can see it. 

Ain't it always that way!

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HI Everyone   Happy New year,

I would just like to add my tuppence worth  to this topis , This interests  me too and I have been doing a bit of research. I have checked to 242 sqn ORB and    Bader flew LE-D : P3061  from the start of

July 1940 till 10th September 1940  when he then took over V7467 :LE D which he flew right through October 1940.  Therefore it would have had the roundels under the wings  as standard.

I have been trying to find the date of the photos and came across the record of Sgt J Savill (he is sitting on the wing next to the cockpit) He was posted to 242 sqn on 21/9/1940 and then to 73 sqn

on 10/10/1940. So these photos would have to been taken between those dates.  Therefore I concluded that this aircraft is indeed LE-D  : V7467 

Tony

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Thank you Tony for digging through the orbs. 

 

The data unearthed puts a failing mark on my Hurricane production calculations, as well as the quoted entry from the FK Mason Hurricane book.   The linked Vintage Wings article also brings to light several errors or questions.  The alleged third mystery Hurricane would then have only been flown a few days  before P3061 became his regular mount - or was it a back up for an extended period?    According to Wiki, Bader joined 242 Squadron on June 28th.

 

The article mentions only six scores were attained while flying P3061, but this tally board based on Chris Shores research gives it as 7:

http://www.cieldegloire.com/002_raf_bader_d_r_s.php

YndFe94.png

 

 

regards,

Jack

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Posted (edited)

Hi Jack,

Well  I had another quick look to answer your questions.   Extract form D . Bader's  Log book are available on line. I went through what I coul;d find. He only put the code letter in it no serials. So If you marry it up to the ORB you get an answer. According to his log book he was posted to 242 on 24/6 and flew in that day. He was first flying " D "  the next day and was still flying it  till he took over P3061. The serial was P3815.

Re - his claims table above , he marked days when he shoot down aircraft with an asterix and made a comment . The ORB  often made a comment as well.  As per your table  I checked the dates and found 2 discrepancies. 7/9/40   no mention of him shooting  down an aircraft  and it is not mentioned in his logbook. The 9/9/40  the table mentions he shot down 3 aircraft but according to his log book he only shot down 1 a do17 . Not sure where the others came from.

Tony

PS.  just went through some combat reports. Bader did shoot down a me110 on 7/9/ 40  and apparently a he111  but P3061 was badly damaged . On the 9/9/40 he definetly only  shot down one do-17 but was flying LE-S: P3090.  Then it was LE- D : V7467.    So that does  make it  only 6 kills in P3061 

Edited by tonywalton

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Tony, now that's a bonus, not only found his third mount, but an additional serial as well.  I think the tallies are pretty close concerning the two dates you have further zeroed in.  Note the French list includes damage (Endommage) aircraft.

 

Is the site you are researching just Bader's reports,  or are all the pilots of 242 in there?

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

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On 1/4/2020 at 4:52 AM, tonywalton said:

HI Everyone   Happy New year,

I would just like to add my tuppence worth  to this topis , This interests  me too and I have been doing a bit of research. I have checked to 242 sqn ORB and    Bader flew LE-D : P3061  from the start of

July 1940 till 10th September 1940  when he then took over V7467 :LE D which he flew right through October 1940.  Therefore it would have had the roundels under the wings  as standard.

I have been trying to find the date of the photos and came across the record of Sgt J Savill (he is sitting on the wing next to the cockpit) He was posted to 242 sqn on 21/9/1940 and then to 73 sqn

on 10/10/1940. So these photos would have to been taken between those dates.  Therefore I concluded that this aircraft is indeed LE-D  : V7467 

Tony

I can narrow the date of the group photo down to between 21st September and 27th September as second from the right is Giles Homer DFC, who joined 242 on the former date and was killed in action on the latter.

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Hi Jack,

Just a quick reply , the sites I am using for research  are just  "The National Archive"  , the RAF Operation Record Books and for the  log books the RAF Museum holds  a lot. Also whatever books I have in my collection. I  have just been researching D. Bader and S/LT  Gardner . Bader being  a famous person his information is easily accessed.   I haven't been looking for other pilots information. If you are after serials/ Code letters   tie ups I have a few I can help you with if you are interested.

Regarding  the photo date  I think maybe they were taken on the 25/ 9 or 26 /9 as the squadron didn't operate either day due to bad weather  ????

Just another aside  , while with 222 Sqn in June  Bader regularly flew  ZD-D which I think was P9443 so I presume he did make his aircraft it "D" after Douglas.

Regards  Tony

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Tony, thanks and yes I do already have "The National Archive"  bookmarked, but did not know "RAF Operation Record Books" is a separate search entity on the same site?   Your third source - log books from the RAF Museum - I take it that is not online and have to be physically present to view?

 

I think it's just the choice in pilots I have chosen to research - not that famous nor high scoring, that I usually just end up finding mention of a squadron colour/position and nothing more.

 

regards,

Jack

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Just a throwaway question on this interesting topic, but once Badar lost his legs and relied on metal ones, did his rudder pedals differ from normal ones in Aircraft he flew? where they modified in any way for him?

Not the kind of thing that would be well documented ... I suppose?

Aircraft he flew never had toe pedal brakes AFAIK, but wheel brake was on the stick control column ... right? Hurricane and Spitfire rudder pedals are just a one axis device for yaw I'm sure.

I cant imagine in modern Jet scenario a pilot who lost his legs be able to fly something like an F-16 ETC that need articulate feet as well for the toe rudder brakes.

I may well be wrong, disabled myself but walking (just) very very curious to find out if Douglas had his rudder pedals modified in any way for him for his artificial legs.

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afaik the pedals were not altered

A late uncle of mine served with Bader during the BoB and once mentioned that Bader would use any servicible aircraft when his perferred one was being serviced; thus it would appear he could use the standard pedals

Its worth noting that when Bader had to leave his Spitfire, one of his feet caught on the upper strap of one of the pedals. Unable to wiggle his foot and leg, as I would/could, to free it he had to leave that leg behind. If the pedals had beed adapted I do not think this would have happened

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Excellent answer Black Night ... and this is how I imagined it would have happened, to this day Pilots may have their name stencilled on preferred Aircraft, but in time of battle and serviceability, its makes sense they would be allocated any Aircraft available to get airborne ASAP.

Remarkable fact Brits dropped by parachute a spare set of metal legs for Douglas at his prison camp and indeed the intel knew where he was being kept, and wonderful our then enemy let him use them ... Geneva convention stuff I suppose ... we dont see much of that anymore, sadly ... wont bang on tho, its a thin line between politics and old war niceties.

Very different days and times.

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Hello One 48

In Bader's biography Reach for the sky Paul Brickhill describes German suggestion of a daylight drop by a RAF bomber, which would be met half way over the Channel, where Luftwaffe fighters would join RAF fighter escort. RAF declined as Brits saw no point in providing Germans with such a golden propaganda opportunity. Eventually a replacement prosthesis had been dropped during a bombing raid by a RAF bomber on her way to the target.

In my opinion genuine chivalry is rare in wartime. Some time ago, a certain German ace met surviving members of a badly shot-up B-17 he allegedly spared in summer of 1944. That same ace had been earlier credited with a victory over B-24 which, according to witnesses, had been last seen droping out of formation with a fuselage in fire from nose to tail and with three Luftwaffe fighters still firing at her. Of course, motives for such behavior in either instance are known only to the pilot in question. Personally I am inclined to believe that in the case of B-17 he either ran out of ammunition or his guns malfunctioned. And there is always a possibility he had been thinking along the lines of Adolph Malan, whose opinion during battle of Britain was that seriously damaged Luftwaffe bomber with wounded and dead aboard, returning to France, is much more damaging to enemy morale than the one that simply disappears on a mission. Cheers

Jure

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Posted (edited)

Hi Jure

If you like, your post is full of. allegedly this and accordingly that with negative overtones my friend.

Love him or hate him, Douglas Bader was a legend that inspired many.

I only entered this thread to talk about how he used his rudder pedals ... I have real flying time too, it need not get deeper than that please.

Just like to remind you, chivalry in war did happen at all times, (probably still does) those men were not all brain washed killing machines as you suggest,. I could cite many examples but fear it would just get into another tit for tat historical knowledge fest, we should just drop this right now please, it will go nowhere.

I'll leave this as possibly the most famous chivalrous act of all time during a world war, warms my heart each time I hear about ... and its not fake news and up for argument and debate, it happened.
 

https://www.history.com/topics/christmas-truce-1914-world-war-i-soldier-accounts

Edited by One 48

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On 1/9/2020 at 8:59 AM, One 48 said:

Just a throwaway question on this interesting topic, but once Badar lost his legs and relied on metal ones, did his rudder pedals differ from normal ones in Aircraft he flew? where they modified in any way for him?

Not the kind of thing that would be well documented ... I suppose?

Aircraft he flew never had toe pedal brakes AFAIK, but wheel brake was on the stick control column ... right? Hurricane and Spitfire rudder pedals are just a one axis device for yaw I'm sure.

I imagine he would have found toe brakes problematic, yes. I had a temporary loss of ankle movement and strength a few years ago on one side due to a back injury and would not have been able to use toe-brakes symetrically at the time, though rudder was never a problem as that comes from the hips and thighs.

 

Pneumatic or manual handbraking, with rudder movement distributing the resulting braking force differentially, was standard design doctrine on British military aircraft at the time and carried on right through at least the Hunter.  Yaks are the same. The piston Provost too.

 

The first British-designed military types I can think of with US-style hydraulic toe brakes are the Jet Provost and Hawk. Of course US types adopted had whatever they came with. Fortunately for him that wasn't really an issue at the time.

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On 1/1/2020 at 6:48 PM, Tail-Dragon said:

While it might not be definitive, in all the paintings that Robert Taylor did of Bader's Hurricanes, he showed the lower roundels. The reason this matters is that the paintings were done with the assistance and concurrence of Bader himself. He (apparently) was quite a stickler for accuracy, and had to approve of the accuracy of the image - one story is that he had Robert Taylor re-do a complete canvass of his Spitfire and Adolf Galland's BF-109E because "I would never have allowed him on my tail like that!"  

 

 

Typical big head Bader remark!

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