The Night Believes it is Endless (1/72 Lysander III)

[CedB]

Nice start PC  

 

Chris has already provided his usual, very helpful, Bristol engine expertise so you're away on the colours. Getting the heat discolouration on the collector ring right is always tricky for me so I'm a bit shy about suggesting a method, but there's lots of reference stuff when I built my 1/48 (sorry) Lizzie here. Does it have cowling support struts? Just asking for a friend…

 

Looks like the cowling has some dents inside to accept the resin exhaust part (fiddly?) and I quite like the way they've added that detail and the nice PE cooling fins (definitely fiddly). Should build up nicely - I think I want one now…

[keefr22]

7 hours ago, Procopius said:

which just goes to show you how advanced one-off handbuilt racing engines were in comparison with something that could be mass-produced and trusted to perform reliably. 

 

As is still the case today....

 

Good start on that mass produced plastic power egg PC!

 

Keith

[Space Ranger]

Well, dang it! That introduction is without a doubt the finest piece of writing I have ever seen on this forum. I had only vaguely known of Agent Madeleine, and now I'm all misty-eyed. And now I'm gonna have to build a Lysander as a tribute, not only to this amazing and beautiful woman, but to all those agents of all nations, known and unknown, who served in the Allied cause in WW II.

[Procopius]

The bulk of the engine is done, to be set aside until later. I'm a little uncertain as to how it fits in the cowl; the instructions are kind of vague on this front, which, based on my perusal of them, seems to be a bit of a theme; I'm also very hazy how the flaps go into the wings at time of press.

 

 

The seat is three parts, and I cut the...sitty part...out and trimmed the flash away, which took a little while.

 

 

The suspiciously large seat back was butt-joined to this:

 

 

It looks considerably more comfortable than a Spitfire's seat, to be sure.

 

I also painted the fuel tank Alclad aluminium and got started on the cockpit internal structure, which there's a lot of. 

 

 

 

Here's what I'm talking about with the flaps:

 

 

I also cut the fuselage pieces off the sprue, and they fit quite nicely once the sprue gates are removed, which is promising. 

 

 

 

 

[Procopius]

Vintage Wings of Canada, incidentally, have a great article on flying the Lysander: http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/486/Lysander-Pilot-Report.aspx

 

It's apparently fairly difficult to land; the test pilot and author Harald Penrose strongly advised changes to the tailplanes to mitigate this, but Teddy Petter, later to design the Gnat as well as the Canberra, refused to make further changes to the design.

[Stew Dapple]

Good start Edward, that seat pan looks just about right to fit your seat-pack parachute into  

 

Regarding the flaps, it looks like it will be okay as long as B6 has the tongues that fit into the slots in the rear of the wing as shown in the instructions; if not then I suppose it will just be a case of sticking it where it fits best...

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

[dogsbody]

Edward, be careful if you're thinking of showing the flaps down. There is some direct relationship between the flaps and the leading edge slats. I can't remember just how it goes right now and I was trying to find it but can't yet. I know I read it on one of the modelling forums ( probably this one, as I haven't checked it yet ).

 

 

 

Chris

[dnl42]

Ooh, I've wanted to see how this builds out. 

21 hours ago, wombat said:

The Haynes Lysander book has a ton of great reference photos. Definitely one of the better of that range.

Indeed it does. And it is.

 

The Mushroom, 4+, and Warpaint books are also valuable as are the Pilot's Notes. We Landed by Moonlight has very informative text. Scale Aircraft Drawings, Volume II World Was II has 4 pages of plans that I found quite valuable.

 

Multiple carb. air intakes, spinners, and exhausts were present, so images are best to confirm the specifics for your markings. Also, the Dowty internally sprung wheels had different positions in flight and on the ground.

[Beard]

1 hour ago, dogsbody said:

Edward, be careful if you're thinking of showing the flaps down. There is some direct relationship between the flaps and the leading edge slats. I can't remember just how it goes right now and I was trying to find it but can't yet. I know I read it on one of the modelling forums ( probably this one, as I haven't checked it yet ).

 

 

 

Chris

You did read it on here, it was in the review of this very kit.

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by Beard

[Dandie Dinmont]

4 hours ago, Procopius said:

Vintage Wings of Canada, incidentally, have a great article on flying the Lysander: http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/486/Lysander-Pilot-Report.aspx

 

It's apparently fairly difficult to land; the test pilot and author Harald Penrose strongly advised changes to the tailplanes to mitigate this, but Teddy Petter, later to design the Gnat as well as the Canberra, refused to make further changes to the design.

The article you link to, and the other one on the site about carrying out air experience flights with the Lysander  (and I only ever got to fly in a Chipmunk 😞 ) are fascinating reading. I had no idea Lysanders were so much of a handful to fly. Gives you even more respect (if that were possibly) for the young men who flew them into small fields in darkness with no idea of what was waiting for them on the ground. 

 

Craig. 

[Fritag]

5 hours ago, Procopius said:

Vintage Wings of Canada, incidentally, have a great article on flying the Lysander: http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/486/Lysander-Pilot-Report.aspx

 

Fascinating and iconic Aircraft.  Great choice of subject PC.

 

It’s also interesting to read the views of the former chief pilot of the Shuttleworth collection - here:

 

Flying the Shuttleworth Collection Lysander (Andy Sephton)

 

I particularly liked this quote in his article, from the Pilot’s notes:

 

“.....The stall is delayed to an exceptionally large angle of attack, and can seldom be reached. But if this aeroplane does stall, a wing drops very sharply and control is entirely lost until speed is regained after a loss of 1000 feet.”

 

Perfect for slow, low night approaches into small fields then! 

 

I’ll be tagging along quietly at the back, as ever with a PC build, if that’s ok?

 

 

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

8 hours ago, Procopius said:

It's apparently fairly difficult to land; the test pilot and author Harald Penrose strongly advised changes to the tailplanes to mitigate this, but Teddy Petter, later to design the Gnat as well as the Canberra, refused to make further changes to the design.

Ah, clearly a true artist, unwilling to compromise the perfection of his vision with mundane considerations like being able to land it.  [Mind you, one can forgive almost any outbreak of prima donna tendencies in someone who designed the sublime Canberra]

[Brandy]

I need to make a mental note NEVER to read one of your intros whilst in the bar!

Extremely eloquent, and very moving, as usual. 

I remember watching from my school when the first restoration (by Personal Plane Services) took flight from Booker (Wycombe Air Park).

I shall be following this one!

 

Ian

Edited January 3, 2020 by limeypilot

[Procopius]

8 hours ago, dogsbody said:

Edward, be careful if you're thinking of showing the flaps down. There is some direct relationship between the flaps and the leading edge slats. I can't remember just how it goes right now and I was trying to find it but can't yet. I know I read it on one of the modelling forums ( probably this one, as I haven't checked it yet ).

Direct mechanical linkage, as the Vintage Wings article discusses. The slats and flaps deploy together. I do not, however, as general rule, build things flaps down, because it spoils the lines. 

 

3 minutes ago, limeypilot said:

I need to make a mental note NEVER to read one of your intros whilst in the bar!

I'm generally improved by strong drink, so long as those experiencing me are the ones imbibing. 

 

8 hours ago, dnl42 said:

The Mushroom, 4+, and Warpaint books are also valuable as are the Pilot's Notes. We Landed by Moonlight has very informative text. Scale Aircraft Drawings, Volume II World Was II has 4 pages of plans that I found quite valuable.

I ordered the (OOP and thus ludicrously expensive) Mushroom book on the aircraft, and it should hopefully arrive -- it's coming from Canada -- soon. I'm pretty sure I bought the Haynes book as well, but if so, it's packed up until my bloody house sells, which is probably never. (And on that topic, some choad broke my silver Spitfire XVI, one of my best models, during one of the showings while I was away.) On your recommendation, I also just ordered a copy of We Landed By Moonlight.

 

 

4 hours ago, Fritag said:

It’s also interesting to read the views of the former chief pilot of the Shuttleworth collection - here:

 

Flying the Shuttleworth Collection Lysander (Andy Sephton)

 

I particularly liked this quote in his article, from the Pilot’s notes:

 

“.....The stall is delayed to an exceptionally large angle of attack, and can seldom be reached. But if this aeroplane does stall, a wing drops very sharply and control is entirely lost until speed is regained after a loss of 1000 feet.”

 

Perfect for slow, low night approaches into small fields then! 

 

1 hour ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Ah, clearly a true artist, unwilling to compromise the perfection of his vision with mundane considerations like being able to land it.  [Mind you, one can forgive almost any outbreak of prima donna tendencies in someone who designed the sublime Canberra]

Yes, that must be it. The cynic in me suspects it had something to do with a six-month delay in production if the changes were implemented, and the totally unrelated fact that Petter pere was shortly thereafter able to report to the shareholders that Westland would get two years of full employment for its works with the Lysander. 

 

 

IWM, incidentally, have a 1988 interview with Air Chief Marshall Christopher Foxley-Norris, who flew Lysanders in France and Hurricanes in the Battle of Britain, available online: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80009917

 

"The Lysander was a very good aircraft. A very good World War I aircraft, but we were flying it in World War II."

 

 

[dogsbody]

9 hours ago, Beard said:

You did read it on here, it was in the review of this very kit.

 

Ain't gettin' old wonderful. Now, where did I put the cat?

 

 

 

Chris

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

6 hours ago, Procopius said:

The cynic in me suspects it had something to do with a six-month delay in production if the changes were implemented, and the totally unrelated fact that Petter pere was shortly thereafter able to report to the shareholders that Westland would get two years of full employment for its works with the Lysander.

Well if you work for Daddy’s company...   It was only recently that I realised that Petters only split Westland off into a separate company as late as 1935, though the name was of WW1 vintage as a division (apparently so named because the works were built on new land to the West of the Petters works, and Lady Petter liked the name).

[Procopius]

Just now, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Well if you work for Daddy’s company...   It was only recently that I realised that Petters only split Westland off into a separate company as late as 1935, though the name was of WW1 vintage as a division (apparently so named because the works were built on new land to the West of the Petters works, and Lady Petter liked the name).

"Petter" has less of a ring than "Westland", it must be said. 

[Procopius]

I'm still chugging along on this. I have to say, in the just-under-a-decade-or-so in which I've been actively modelling, it's amazing how rapid the pace of improvement has been. The second kit I built after starting up was the AZ Spiteful, and this Lysander, while definitely being a tricky kit and not one I'd want to tackle as a beginner, is light years ahead. 

 

I'm still working on the cockpit, which seems to be the bulk of the parts, perhaps unsurprising, as it's most of the aircraft's length.

 

 

 

The instructions here are really hard for me to figure out. For instance, here, where the hell is part D2 going?

 

 

 

Where in god's name did it go?

 

 

 

 

[Stew Dapple]

Nice work mate,

 

My guess - and it is just that but there's no harm in testing it with a dry-fit - is that the recessess in the sides of D2 fit between the sloping back end of parts E20 and E28 and the unnumbered part that looks like a landmine goes on top of them and butts against the back end of D2, but that for some reason this is not shown on the completed parts drawing... does that make sense? I can see it in my mind, but then I see a lot of things in there...

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

[Procopius]

Incidentally, today I received a copy of Scramble, by Wing Commander John Nesbitt-Dufort DSO, who flew Special Duties Lysanders and successfully evaded back home after crashing in France in one in 1942. In this little book, published in 1970, he discusses his impressions of the various aircraft he flew in WWII, and as a QFI, he flew many. He describes his experiences of the Lysander partly thus:

Quote

 

Level flight (with the aircraft well under AUW) has been achieved below 55 MPH in Lysanders and at 60 a very steep angle of approach presented no difficulty. A trick effect was also obtainable by keeping the speed down to around 50 MPH and holding the stick firmly back, the throttle was then manipulated between the half and quarter open position and the Lizzy would come down like a lift. This last manoeuvre did, however, require considerable skill,as at not less than 25ft full throttle had to be applied and the stick eased forward a fraction at the same time and faulty timing could, and sometimes did when executed by the inexperienced, result in the undercarriage doing the splits to the accompaniment of expensive noises.

 

This spectacular type of descent was only used in extreme emergencies as normally in any sort of wind with gentle use of the very efficient pneumatic breaks my own landing run seldom exceeded 160yds and in a moderate breeze using the automatic boost control cut-out I have actually taken off in 36yds.

 

 

Incidentally, Nesbitt-Dufort had a grand total of 168 hours on type at the conclusion of his RAF career, which meant that he was flying into occupied France, at night, landing, and taking off again with less experience I had in automobiles by the time I finally got my driver's license. (Though in fairness to him, he was a phenomenally experienced pilot overall, having entered the RAF in 1930 and been a QFI and MU test pilot.)

 

 

[Procopius]

2 minutes ago, Stew Dapple said:

My guess - and it is just that but there's no harm in testing it with a dry-fit - is that the recessess in the sides of D2 fit between the sloping back end of parts E20 and E28 and the unnumbered part that looks like a landmine goes on top of them and butts against the back end of D2, but that for some reason this is not shown on the completed parts drawing... does that make sense? I can see it in my mind, but then I see a lot of things in there...

Hmmm, I think I understand what you're suggesting. 

[dogsbody]

Would D2 fit on the framework instead of the roundy bit. Maybe for the agents to have a place to sit?

 

 

 

Chris

[Procopius]

1 minute ago, dogsbody said:

Would D2 fit on the framework instead of the roundy bit. Maybe for the agents to have a place to sit?

 

I think part E41 is the cushion the passenger sits on. I can't seem to find good photos of the Lizzie's backseat.

[dogsbody]

SOE Lizzies were modified so the two agents could be seated back there, as a gunner wasn't carried.

 

From the MMP book:

 

 

 

 

Chris

[dnl42]

I haven't found any contemporaneous photos of an SD rear cockpit. The best info I found was a text description in Airborne Espionage. Google Books has the text online, with the relevant passage here. Based on this, I skipped most of the rear compartment equipment except the panels on the sides and the radio shelf (see the Mushroom book for a photo). I also added a flat bench seat.