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ALL Bf-109 EXPERTS. 1/48 Bf-109F/G kits. Zvezda UM, ICM


Otakar

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Has anyone ever done a kit quality comparison between these brands? I am not a 109 builder in general but like to do conversions. I.E. https://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=131002 (sorry, it is just too difficult to post pictures on this website, as much as I like it here) Since I like conversions, I like to buy inexpensive kits. I don't mind too much fitting but if I can avoid some of it I will. Since these brands are the least expensive and seam to fit in the category of "good detail" I bought some of the UM kits. I find the detail very good but the fit is quite poor. The ICM Spitfires I purchased in the past seam to be much better. So for kits I can pick up in the <$12 range, which is your opinion as being the better. Of these three. Not interested in more expensive options. Looking on line at pictures of parts trees and individual parts, the ICM and UM kits seam to have some identical and what would look like interchangeable parts. The wings look identical. The fuse would only seam different because of the integrated tail and the clear parts are different.  I know that the UM kit is not a great fit but actually buildable with frequent dry fitting. All the UM kits have virtually the same components in the boxes with the exception of the G-4 which has a different fuse section due to the inserts to eliminate the gun blisters. Is the ICM kit just as poor fitting as the UM (but very good detail) Personally I do not like the similar model versions from Eduard at all. I hat the way the fuselage parts are broken down in the nose section. It will not work for my conversions. As accurate as the fuselage on the Eduard kit is supposed to be, I have read that the wing is Grossly oversized.

Edited by Otakar
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Hi there

 

I have a Zvezda 109F4 and the fit was good! Detail wise it is up to Eduard level and what I hear and read it is very accurate! I clear recommenadtion for Zvezda 109s from me.

 

cheers

Uwe

 

PS: I have a few ICM Spitfire Mk IX kits that I got super cheap for 5EUR/piece...apart from a very slightly skinny tail the detailing is not bad but the kits have a lot of sink marks and flesh and the fit is also challanging...

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I've built both the Zvezda and ICM kits. Both are good but Zvezda beats ICM, though I think I used some ICM leftovers on my Zvezda kit as they seemed better. I'd have to dig into my records on that and would happily do so if you are interested.

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Not being at all knowledgeable about the Bf-109 (Meaning that I know almost anything at all except a little about the Avia S-199) Can anyone tell me if there is any visual difference between the F-4 and the G-4 variants? I am referring to the outline of the general airframe and any obvious shape and size differences. What I would be asking, in short, is would I be able to tell the difference between the ICM 109F-4 and the UM 109G-4? There any obvious shape differences in the Nose, Wings, Tail, Scoops, Blisters, Etc. Etc. The only thing that I could find are the small blisters on the wings to accommodate the wider wheels. Since I am building only Czech built variants, they would all be the G variant and all but a very few (if not only one or two) would have the tall tail and be of the G-10 category. There were however less than a handful that may have been of the G-4, G-6, G-14 variants. I don't think that any of these were the fighter single seat version but all fell into the G-12 trainer version, As little as I do know, I actually am aware that the G-12 used a variety of nose stiles and both vertical tail  tail stiles (as mentioned in previous sentence). I don't think that anyone is aware of any singe seat versions with the Chipmunk Cheeks. Before the S-199 started production with the Jumo-211 engine, all the DB-605 powered versions were of the G-10 nose wing and tail configuration. No single seaters were of the G-14 configuration. The reason for the request of this information is because I was just wondering if I could use a Zvezda or ICM kit to build a Czech variant.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

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10 minutes ago, Otakar said:

Can anyone tell me if there is any visual difference between the F-4 and the G-4 variants? I am referring to the outline of the general airframe and any obvious shape and size differences.

the basic outline is the same.

10 minutes ago, Otakar said:

What I would be asking, in short, is would I be able to tell the difference between the ICM 109F-4 and the UM 109G-4? There any obvious shape differences in the Nose, Wings, Tail, Scoops, Blisters, Etc. Etc. The only thing that I could find are the small blisters on the wings to accommodate the wider wheels.

F-4 vs G-4, 

the G-4 has squared off wheel wells, F-4 are circular.  The G-4 has the heavier framed G canopy, and the larger wheels, and small wing bulges,  and solid wheel centres, as opposed to the spoked type.

the DB605 added small scoops to the side of the nose,  and some of the panel lines and access hatches are different, and I think the supercharger intake maybe larger.  retractable tail wheel, with smaller wheel,  the F-4 kit maybe have narrower blades.

Many of the bits you need are on the common parts and canopy sprues in the Eduard kit.

F-4

f4_left_trop.jpg

 

G-5 but if you ignore the gun breeches,  basically the same as G-4

G5_common_left.jpg

 

 

HTH

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Thank You, so for an ignorant sweetheart like me regarding this subject, I am looking at the wheel-well shape and the blisters on top of the wings. Otherwisw I would have to count the rivets or pull out the magnifier.

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OK, here is the next question. This one involves the Eduard Kits. Some years ago there was a lot written about the improper dimensions on their 109G-6 kit. I'm not sure if that also encompassed their earlier models like the E and F variants. I did however buy their G-10 kit and the dimensional problems were fixed on that kit. I unfortunately bought some of their G-2 and G-6 kits recently and found the issues in these. Than I read that they re-tooled and fixed the problems. Is this true? If it is, which are the kits that are the ones with the proper dimensions?

 

Thanks.

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Not sure, but fairly certain The 109G late series was the first boxing introducing the corrected parts.   That would be kit No. 82111.   If you look at the timeline found at Scalemates, any G models before that release are the original.

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/eduard-82111-bf-109g-6-late-series--945346

 

Eduard release the F model afterwards, and should be ok.

 

The E model was released much earlier than all of these.  Actually these first came out in 1/32 scale, followed by 1/48.   I can't remember the exact problems that I read about, but apparently they were copied onto the smaller scale kits.

 

regards,

Jack

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Thanks for all the help guys. I actually bought the 82111X on eBay and I think that someone did a swop and switch. In the box was the oversized kit. Aft fuselage too long and wing too much span also. What I did notice, with more on line study, was that all the new kits have the wingtips incorporated into the upper wing half and the old kits have the wingtips completely extra. I filed a return request on eBay and the guy knew what he did. He told e to keep the models and he refunded me. I just picked up a weekend addition "Mtt Regensburg" for $24 including post so I should have a good one to use for my S-199 Modification. According to that timeline on Scalemates, it belongs to the new kits. I can use the others for parts. I looked at the old wings and just cutting off about 2mm before installing the wing tips should make them usable. There were four sets of wings and two fuselages in the box. Two with the upper wing bumps and two without. Same with the fuselages. One with the breach covers and one without. This will give me four sets of wings to modify if I need to. All the other parts were there also. As for the ICM kits. How close are they to the UM models kits? I have the UM kits but never seen the ICM ones. According to pictures, it looks like most of the parts could be interchangeable. The UM kits are very detailed and nicely molded but the fit is quite poor. No better than much of the short run kits from HPM MPM Classic Airframes and so forth.  I think I might do some kit-bashing between the UM and the oversized Eduard.

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One other difference between F and G is the lowest "side light" on the windscreen.  This was deleted on the G, though I've got a vague idea that it isn't quite as cut and dry as that.  (Troy's comparison profiles show this difference.)

Edited by gingerbob
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The G-4 had much wider prop blades than the F series, and the supercharger intake is completely different.

 

There are other significant differences in panel (filler access) locations, etc.  Both of them have the same basic aerodynamic shape, but differ in many details.

 

If you want to paint up an F as a G, no one is going to stop you, but you won't have an accurate model.  There are so many good Bf 109 kits of every variant ever made, why not just get the right one for the airplane you're wanting to model?

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Thank You, this is the information I wanted. Thank you for all the help. I will stick with the UM G kits and leave the ICM and Zvezda kits alone. I also have some Eduard kits. Both the inaccurate first moldings and the later versions also.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Boy, I hate to really admit this, Was I WRONG. After more exhaustive studies, I actually completely reversed my decision. I am actually going with the Zvezda kits. This is why. I have found the UM/ ICM Bf-109G/F fuselage very narrow in the vertical outline. BY A LOT. It is more off in the opposite direction than Eduard is. We (I) now know that Eduard is too tall in the vertical fuselage outline but not by much (about .6-.75mm) while UM (for sure) (I think that ICM is the same outline but I do not have one to compare, the two kits look identical in almost all ways and parts). I read that the Tamiya and Zvezda are identical in outline. Also I can use the round wheel wells of the F-4 for my conversion of the S/CS-199. I have the G-10/K blisters from the Hobby Craft and Hasegawa kits for this conversion and can use all the other parts from the fantastic AML update set now that they are redoing the propeller for the actual correct shape. The only thing I will have to do from scratch is the nose which should not be too difficult. Besides having a bunch of the original Hobby Craft S-199 propellers which are not actually very far off from the actual shape. However they are off in diameter and both shape and diameter are not very difficult to fix. Just time involved. From my original conversion I started of the CS-99/C-110.501 (G-12 intermediate variant) https://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=131002 , I savaged the wing from the UM kit and mated it to a Eduard G-6 fuselage. The extra .75mm do not bother me for two reasons. 1) it is les wrong than the UM/ICM being 1mm too low, and 2) since I am using Eduard overtrees which cost me nothing ($0) and are of the initial molding which the fuselage was 2mm too long, and wingspan 4mm in span too great. I have four sets of these. I shortened the fuselage right behind the cockpit which shifted the taper forward and made the inaccuracy to less than .4mm. Besides the aft deck being cut down even more to accommodate the two-seat canopy from Jay's Model Kits, the inaccuracy is imperceivable. What bothered me the most about the UM/ICM kit was the nose. It was just WAY to skinny from the profile. It just looks strange and was too difficult to match to the canopy which was based on the Hasegawa kit. This kit just did not have the distinctive downward slope of the 109 but was almost flat like the Spitfire. I have since put all my UM kits on eBay and ordered the Zveza kits. The Zvezda kits are almost the same price as the UM kits. Only $1 more. The only fault I can find is the wingspan problem and for that I can graft either the remaining UM kit wings onto it (which I still have two of from the kits I can't sell) or the Eduard wings which I also have plenty of. The UM wing grafts beautifully onto the Eduard fuselage with very little effort. The wing to fuselage joint is virtually exact.

     So in short, the go-to kit for all my conversions will be the Zvezda kit. The conversions I am doing will be the, 1) G-12 early (Avia C-110 ( aircraft, black EV-8) with the short tail and no breach blisters)), 2) G-12 intermediate (Avia C-110/ CS-99 (aircraft, black EV-7) with tall tail and breach blisters, and finally, 3) two CS-199 based on the S-199, one with the original G-12 canopy and one with the late sliding canopy from Falcon. I am skipping the late G-12 based on the G-10 fuselage. My first project, as indicated by the hyperlink above, is using the shortened early Eduard G-6 fuselage with the UM wing. All the remaining conversions will be based on the Zvezda fuselages. I don't know what wings I will be using yet, Eduard, UM, or Zvezda. UM is nice wing, Eduard wing must be shortened by 2mm at each tip but easy to do. Zvezda on the other hand must be lengthened by 1mm which is much more difficult to do. Or maybe just leave the span 2mm too small.

Edited by Otakar
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On 1/2/2020 at 11:10 PM, Otakar said:

OK, here is the next question. This one involves the Eduard Kits. Some years ago there was a lot written about the improper dimensions on their 109G-6 kit. I'm not sure if that also encompassed their earlier models like the E and F variants. I did however buy their G-10 kit and the dimensional problems were fixed on that kit. I unfortunately bought some of their G-2 and G-6 kits recently and found the issues in these. Than I read that they re-tooled and fixed the problems. Is this true? If it is, which are the kits that are the ones with the proper dimensions?

 

Thanks.

Hi, Otakar,

 

All current production Eduard 109 kits are "corrected" (that is, to the extent they were...) . The only version with the faulty dimensiones kitted was a 109G-6 (and the Royal Class). I doubt a manistream retailer still keeps an "olde G-6" for sale. Even these G-6 currently on sale (#82111 and 82113) are "corrected" examples. The old uncorrected one had a distinct box art, showing a forward view of a  G-6 and was a bit simplified than current boxings. It doesn't show any more even on Ebay.

Regards,

Fernando

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Fernando;

The kits that I have I got for free and they were all in blank Overtree boxes, so I have no idea of their actual orygin. But there are two distinct kits. They are both oversize in fuselage length and wingspan. There are two different wings and two different fuselages. One wing has wheel bulges and one wing has no wheel bulges one fuselage has breach blisters and the other has none. I am aware that all new boxings are with the correct fuselage length and wingspan. When I got these free kits they were in boxes marked 82111x which should be new boxings of the 109G-6 with corrected dimensions. I do have three new kits of the G-10 and one new boxing of the G-6 so I can verify that the two stiles of older kits I have possess the wrong, larger dimensions. But there are two distinctive variants of kits. According to the Scalemates timeline graph, it also seams to indicate that there were more than one distinctive kit and boxing. https://www.scalemates.com/kits/eduard-8268-bf-109g-6--257341 I know that I have two of them. The grey plastic parts (fuselage and wing trees) I have roughly approximate the ones in this kit https://www.scalemates.com/kits/eduard-r0009-bf-109g--260568. The "T" tree looks the same but the "S" tree looks a bit different with more parts on the one I have. The "N" "M" & "K" trees look the same. The clear parts are completely different  The "H" & "I" trees also look the same.

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30 minutes ago, Otakar said:

Fernando;

The kits that I have I got for free and they were all in blank Overtree boxes, so I have no idea of their actual orygin. But there are two distinct kits. They are both oversize in fuselage length and wingspan. There are two different wings and two different fuselages. One wing has wheel bulges and one wing has no wheel bulges one fuselage has breach blisters and the other has none. I am aware that all new boxings are with the correct fuselage length and wingspan. When I got these free kits they were in boxes marked 82111x which should be new boxings of the 109G-6 with corrected dimensions. I do have three new kits of the G-10 and one new boxing of the G-6 so I can verify that the two stiles of older kits I have possess the wrong, larger dimensions. But there are two distinctive variants of kits. According to the Scalemates timeline graph, it also seams to indicate that there were more than one distinctive kit and boxing. https://www.scalemates.com/kits/eduard-8268-bf-109g-6--257341 I know that I have two of them.

You should have both "corrected" kits. For what you say,  you have a G-2/G-4 kit, hece the wings with and without the bulges (small). There was no "wrong" wing without bulges, and of course none with the "big" ones. The G-6 I cannot ascertain, for it may well be the old kit in a Overtree white box. There was no Overtree boxing of the old, "wrong" kit. Check the clear parts, if the clear parts are the same (or at least the same layout) in all kits, you have the "new, corrected" kits. Fuselages had little difference if any, most of the corrections went to the wings.

 

Fernando

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Since I can't post pictures here I cant show you what I have but I have long fuselages with and without breach bulges and over-span wings also with and without bulges. I have determined that ALL corrected wings have the wingtips molded to the upper wing half while the old, over-span wings have the wingtips separate. The length of the leading edge slats on the "I" trees also match the length of the long wings. On the new kit I have those dimensions are both shorter and match the wing with the pre-molded wingtips. The fact that they have been put into another box (28111x overtrees) is pretty much a given. The fact is that there are two distinctively different fuselages and two distinctively different wings is also a fact. Both are oversize in comparison to my new corrected 84143 G-6 kit. And obviously the new G-10 kit. As explained in another thread and on this post https://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=131002&start=30 both are very easily fixed.

Edited by Otakar
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Oh, yes, the separated or moulded in wingtips are a giveaway. Your wings have the detached wingtips?

 

EDIT: the production timeline in Scalemates you posted is most helpful. I have never seen the OT boxings from the "old" mould, nor the F Profi or G-2/-4 (only OT... strange...). I have never seen them retailed, not even at Eduard's or Hannant's, only the basic Profi G-6 and the Royal Class. All kits stemming out of #8268 are the "old and incorrect" one. I would write Eduard to see if I could turn them back or receive a discount... that was what they did some years ago. Regards.

 

fernando

Edited by Fernando
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Yes they both types do. take a look at this. https://www.scalemates.com/kits/eduard-r0009-bf-109g--260568. Take a look at the PDF instruction sheet on this page. The rest of the explanation is in my two previous posts by tree breakdown. It looks like the "S" tree was also updated since the PDF file because mine has extra parts that are not shown on the picture in the PDF but still has the wrong long fuselage. The "S" tree I have looks identical to the "T" tree with all those extra parts but has the fuselage halves shown on the "S" tree. What I have looks exactly like this "Royal" kit without all the extra goodies and with the Updated clear parts and not the ones shown in the PDF. https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/5/6/8/260568-13-instructions.pdf

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You can see how I decided to utilize these kits here. Both fuselages will be used to make a Czech G-12 (SC-99) aircraft numbers EV-7 and EV-8. EV-7 had the tall tail with breach bulges and not much is known about EV-8 but according to this picture it has the short tail and very likely no breach bulges. This is the only known picture of EV-8. There are a bunch of pictures of EV-7

spacer.png

spacer.png

 

Edited by Otakar
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