Airfix Mitchell MkII OOB Colourcoat Paints

[sprue]

The Airfix kit gives two alternative finnishes. SM-V FV923 305 Polish squadron England September - October 1943 or EV-W FL212 180 Squadron 1943.

I prefer colourcoats paints but I'm unsure of which paints I need from their extensive catalogue as there seems to be more than one gray, olive drab or interior colour. Any advice or tips for the following would be most welcome :-

Interior colour

Olive drab

Neutral Gray

Also can someone recomend a good reference for RAF Mitchells?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Duncan B]

Jamie from Colourcoats is a member on here, I'm sure he'll be along shortly to let you know.

 

Duncan B

[Graham Boak]

Olive Drab is notoriously variable.  There has been some discussion as to whether the Mitchells were at least partially repainted in some other dark green, but I'd stick with one of the greener varieties available, and Colourcoats (whichever recommended) will be a good choice.

 

Neutral Gray is another matter.  This is a surprisingly dark colour, but photos of US aircraft in (say) 1942 do look appropriately dark.  However by 1944 most USAAF camouflaged aircraft seem to be using a much lighter colour, despite Neutral Gray remaining the official shade.  I believe this is true for the RAF Mitchells.  You might ask Jamie to consider this matter before making any recommendations as he may have a suitable US alternative.

 

There is no single work of reference on RAF Mitchells that I'm aware of.  Paul Lucas has addressed this subject in article(s), but this was at least originally based on an assumption that they were not in standard OD, which is "slightly shaky".

[Troy Smith]

North American Mitchell by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

Quote

a Lineup of 180 Sqn. Mitchell's at Foulsham during the introduction to the Press on 28 July 1943.

 

 

 

 

this is cited  as evidence of repaints into Dark Green /Med Sea Grey

Given the tattiness of the ones above, and the very pale underside and good condition of the uppers, seems reasonable.

the AEAF stripes were re-introduced in late 44 only on the rear fuselage of 2nd TAF bombers

Melsbroek   1945. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

Interior colours, these have been discussed, I'll see if I can find the threads.   And I;'ll put an @Dana Bell  in as he's the chap for these kind of questions  

[sprue]

Thanks for the input guys i've a feeling this is going to be a can of worms but an interesting discussion

Mike and Happy New Year

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Good morning,

 

I am by no means an authority on Mitchells, but from what I've gathered thus far I painted my own B-25D interior accordingly - this is ACUS22 Zinc Chromate Green behind the cockpit bulkhead and in the nose except those obviously aluminium. Cockpit is going to be ACUS30 Bronze Green #9.

 

As for exterior, I know no more than those who already commented above. If you wanted a lighter grey that was still neutral in hue I could help there, but I'd be reluctant to recommend anything in particular to go outside an RAF Mitchell because I've done no research that makes my thoughts any more founded than the posts above.

[sprue]

Hi Jamie Happy New Year

Thanks for the input and as I  guessed its a can of worms.

I'm going to follow your suggestions for the interior colours and for the outer surfaces it seems to be anyones guess as these aircraft weathered badly and were retouched as neccessary.

Just sent you an order for various paints as I need to stock up.

Thanks again

 

Mike

[Phantome]

You want USAAF Olive Drab No. 41 and Neutral Gray No. 43. The RAF stopped using [edit] RAF camouflage on their Europe-based medium bombers around 1943 so they would have been left in their original OD 41/NG 43 factory colors.

 

For early B-25s (including Mk IIs) the cockpits are Bronze Green No. 9. with all other interior spaces either Yellow or Green Zinc Chromate (probably a mix of both) or aluminum (bomb bays). https://www.ipmsstockholm.se/home/interior-colours-of-us-aircraft-1941-45-part-ii/

 

Colourcoats has OD No. 41 (ACUS15) as well as NG 43 (ACUS13) though unfortunately the latter is also labeled as FS 26118 which would be way off (too dark and too blue). I have not seen the paint itself to see if it is closer to NG 43 or 26118.

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by Phantome

[Graham Boak]

The RAF didn't stop using camouflage: better to say that the RAF stopped requiring British camouflage on their US-supplied medium bombers (B-25, B-26 and Ventura), which were arriving in USAAF camouflage.  Remaining British-built medium bombers stayed in British camouflage, namely the Wellington and perhaps the Warwick.  The same was true for lighter bombers, the US-supplied Bostons staying in Lend-Lease colours.  Baltimores remained in British camouflage, and did Mosquitos and Buckinghams - which didn't see service but were camouflaged anyway.  The RAF continued to insist on camouflage for their medium and light bombers even after the USAAF went to bare metal airframes.  The B-25 was perhaps the first type to see significant service without any carrying British camouflage, the Mk.Is used only for trials and training excepted.

 

Although the same rule was intended for all Lend-Lease aircraft, those from early contracts continued to be delivered in British camouflage, if not always with quite "correct" colours.  E.g. Corsairs, Wildcats, Mustangs.  Coastal Command Liberators were always delivered in "Coastal White", although the later bombers were in OD over grey.  Probably not NG43 however, which was very dark and not even seen on USAAF types much after 1943 production, despite what the contracts may have said.  As the name implies, there is no blue in Neutral Grey, otherwise the common light undersides could be explained by curiosities of film chemistry,

[Troy Smith]

6 hours ago, sprue said:

as I  guessed its a can of worms.

Hardly.  Olive Drab over Neutral Gray, which may have varied over time.  its the standard USAAF finish. 

see https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings/22-NAA-B-25-Mitchell

 

 The internal colors are reasonably well established.  Some planes may later have been repainted using RAF paint.  This can perhaps be guesstimated by when the airframe you wish to model dates from. 

 

20 minutes ago, Phantome said:

The RAF stopped using camouflage on their Europe-based medium bombers around 1943 so they would have been left in their original factory colors.

The USAAF did, the RAF didn't, and asked for Lend Lease types to continue being camouflaged. 

North American even camouflaged B-25''s for the Soviets in VVS specified colors,(black undersides with 3 tone uppers in Olive Drab, brown and gray) when the USAAF dropped camouflage. 

24 minutes ago, Phantome said:

NG 43 (ACUS13) though unfortunately the latter is also labeled as FS 26118 which would be way off (too dark and too blue). I have not seen the paint itself to see if it is closer to NG 43 or 26118.

Maybe older stock. @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies is aware that , and had posted to that effect  FS 595 is not the same as the wartime ANA standard, and AFAIK, has based the current Colourcoats on verified paint chips and input from @Dana Bell

 

Dana will be the best chap for the current state of research on the B-25 colors,  and if you wait,  he does respond to notifications.

 

HTH

[Phantome]

20 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Hardly.  Olive Drab over Neutral Gray, which may have varied over time.  its the standard USAAF finish. 

see https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings/22-NAA-B-25-Mitchell

 

 The internal colors are reasonably well established.  Some planes may later have been repainted using RAF paint.  This can perhaps be guesstimated by when the airframe you wish to model dates from. 

 

The USAAF did, the RAF didn't, and asked for Lend Lease types to continue being camouflaged. 

North American even camouflaged B-25''s for the Soviets in VVS specified colors,(black undersides with 3 tone uppers in Olive Drab, brown and gray) when the USAAF dropped camouflage. 

Maybe older stock. @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies is aware that , and had posted to that effect  FS 595 is not the same as the wartime ANA standard, and AFAIK, has based the current Colourcoats on verified paint chips and input from @Dana Bell

 

Dana will be the best chap for the current state of research on the B-25 colors,  and if you wait,  he does respond to notifications.

 

HTH

 

Sorry, I think I made myself misunderstood: the RAF stopped using RAF camouflage on its UK-based medium bombers (Mitchells, Marauders, and Bostons) so they were left in the prevalent USAAF scheme of OD 41/NG 43 which were applied at the factory. At least (from what I understand) those in bombing units; intruder Bostons, for example, were still given the prevalent intruder scheme colors.

[Phantome]

29 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Maybe older stock. @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies is aware that , and had posted to that effect  FS 595 is not the same as the wartime ANA standard, and AFAIK, has based the current Colourcoats on verified paint chips and input from @Dana Bell

 

Dana will be the best chap for the current state of research on the B-25 colors,  and if you wait,  he does respond to notifications.

 

HTH

I do suspect it is matched to NG43, but this is one color that should not have an ANA (it has no equivalent) or FS number on its label

[Troy Smith]

8 minutes ago, Phantome said:

 

Sorry, I think I made myself misunderstood: the RAF stopped using RAF camouflage on its UK-based medium bombers (Mitchells, Marauders, and Bostons) so they were left in the prevalent USAAF scheme of OD 41/NG 43 which were applied at the factory. At least (from what I understand) those in bombing units; intruder Bostons, for example, were still given the prevalent intruder scheme colors.

OK.  AFAIK the RAF didn't use the Marauder in from the UK, just in the MTO. Some in Desert scheme, some later maybe OD/NG.

    

I don't think any RAF Mitchells were ever in RAF type camouflage, perhaps one or two very early ones. (IIRC there was a thread on this), though the fading has been interpreted in some profiles as disruptive camouflage.

Bostons and Havocs came from different sources and a different times,   and Boston III's were factory finished in the US to MAP standards, as the colours photos of 88 Sq Bostons shows, though these are dated around May 1942 during the change from A to C type roundels.

first plane has had the blue added, and awaiting the red for the roundel centres, fin flash and code letters.

 

A search has  RAF Boston III in OD/NG, 

and Boston IV's all were I think.

 

A good chap for this would @tonyot

[Phantome]

I've seen plenty of photos of early Mitchels in Temperate Land Scheme, but didn't really pay attention to the units, so as is often the case, usually just a small number of aircraft from a small number of units getting all the photos taken

 

Here's a good picture of a Marauder in OG/NG before export:

 

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by Phantome

[Graham Boak]

New aircraft would carry out a photo mission (or perhaps more than one) to collect enough views from various angles to go into recognition guides.  These were often an aircraft from the A&AEE at Boscombe Down.  In the case of the Mitchell those taken with the Mk.I in UK camouflage were representative enough of later variants to be widely distributed.  I suspect that very few photos were taken of other Mk.Is in this camouflage (or any other, if such a thing existed) because the Mitchell OTU was established in the Caribbean and that's where most of them were delivered to and served.  I've not seen a Mk.I in any camouflage other than TLS, nor a later mark in TLS, but all in OD/grey.  (Or at least some kind of green, but I would say all the colour photos I've seen show patchy OD.)