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Sopwith Camel rigging question.


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I’m moving from WW1 armoured vehicles to WW1 aircraft. So I’m about to start building a Wingnut Wings Sopwith Camel. (this could be a bit of a challenge) I see from the build instructions, that they show different diameters of rigging line for control wires and structural rigging. Also, they suggest using a flat aerodynamic rigging. My question is, is it necessary to use different diameters, or can I get away with one size for all.

http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/vA3D3379A/www/products/model_kitsets/32070/online_instructions/32070 Sopwith F.1 Camel BR.1 Instructions.pdf

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Unfortunately no one does flat rigging (known as Royal Aircraft Factory or RAF Wire). You can try etched brass but the issue then is always tension - nothing worse than saggy rigging! I have some RB flat etch - just so I have some but I've never dared use it! Then of course there are 3D printed turnbuckles from Gaspatch or Bob's buckles or RB Productions etch. But then Wingnut suggest that you don't bother with turnbuckles at all, just use paint to suggest them. A matter of opinion. If you do use turnbuckles then I think I'm right in saying that they are only attached to one end of the wire, after all they are there to allow the rigging to be tensioned, so much like tuning a guitar or piano wire. Often you will see WNW recommending 0.3 or 0.5 mm thread, one for rigging, the other for control cables - have a look at the instruction sheets for several models on WNW's website, you'll see what I mean. They also do some very useful 'Hints and Tips' sheets. As for material itself, well I like Ezee line - (Try Little Cars/Hobby Tools for supply). Intended for telegraph wires and similar on American model railway layouts and available in various colours and light or heavyweight and a bit stretchy. Not sure whether black or white is best but then you are replicating a white metal wire so maybe you need to paint them in a greyish silver? Of course, if you build German aeroplanes then life is much easier because their rigging had a circular criss section, not aero! There's also invisible mending thread but this looks better for 1/48th. And finally, there are a couple of books about building Wingnut kits. Well worth getting hold of. You will be amazed by what the experts can do but they are still fascinating to read - and to learn from - but you have to tell yourself how small these models are because the photos make them look huge!!

 

Good luck!

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26 minutes ago, Simon Cornes said:

Unfortunately no one does flat rigging (known as Royal Aircraft Factory or RAF Wire). You can try etched brass but the issue then is always tension - nothing worse than saggy rigging! I have some RB flat etch - just so I have some but I've never dared use it! Then of course there are 3D printed turnbuckles from Gaspatch or Bob's buckles or RB Productions etch. But then Wingnut suggest that you don't bother with turnbuckles at all, just use paint to suggest them. A matter of opinion. If you do use turnbuckles then I think I'm right in saying that they are only attached to one end of the wire, after all they are there to allow the rigging to be tensioned, so much like tuning a guitar or piano wire. Often you will see WNW recommending 0.3 or 0.5 mm thread, one for rigging, the other for control cables - have a look at the instruction sheets for several models on WNW's website, you'll see what I mean. They also do some very useful 'Hints and Tips' sheets. As for material itself, well I like Ezee line - (Try Little Cars/Hobby Tools for supply). Intended for telegraph wires and similar on American model railway layouts and available in various colours and light or heavyweight and a bit stretchy. Not sure whether black or white is best but then you are replicating a white metal wire so maybe you need to paint them in a greyish silver? Of course, if you build German aeroplanes then life is much easier because their rigging had a circular criss section, not aero! There's also invisible mending thread but this looks better for 1/48th. And finally, there are a couple of books about building Wingnut kits. Well worth getting hold of. You will be amazed by what the experts can do but they are still fascinating to read - and to learn from - but you have to tell yourself how small these models are because the photos make them look huge!!

 

Good luck!

As always in these discussions, this is the point where I remind everyone that late war RFC/RAF aeroplanes only use turnbuckles on the control wires. The flat stuff, called Rafwires, had a tensioner built into the connector, and it looked nothing like a turnbuckle.  Gaspatch do the appropriate connector  in their metal turnbuckle range,(just to confuse) , They're at the end of the list, as RAF late-type see  http://www.gaspatchmodels.com/products/metal-turnbuckles-32.html.  60 in a pack, should do you.

 

BTW, I've used the RB PE. Nice idea, can't get it to work in 1/32nd due to flexibility in the wing cellule causing some lengths to bend, and believe me I've tried very hard to make it work. RB even make teensy fold-up PE connectors. They look quite good when done, but are beyond my feeble dexterity level, especially given how many you'd need for something like a Camel.

 

Paul.

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Thanks to everyone who has answered. As always, this forum has not let me down, it’s a mine of information. The turnbuckles, I think, will be a fiddle too far. The old eyes aren’t what they were. I will probably get two diameters of rigging, possibly from here. I think this subject is very open to interpretation, as to how accurate you want to be. I’m building kits for my enjoyment, not to be exhibited.

https://www.scalemodelshop.co.uk/products/accessories/auxiliaries/rigging

 

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EZ Line has already been mentioned, but will add this product definitely has a flat cross-section.  It`s more noticeable in their heavy size (advertised as 0.5mm).   The flatness is easily seen when there is a twist in the line, so watch out for that.

 

 

regards,

Jack

Edited by JackG
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2 hours ago, JackG said:

EZ Line has already been mentioned, but will add this product definitely has a flat cross-section.  It`s more noticeable in their heavy size (advertised as 0.5mm).   The flatness is easily seen when there is a twist in the line, so watch out for that.

 

 

regards,

Jack

Thanks Jack. Do you know where I can get EZ line ?

Edited by Faraway
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I see you are based in the UK, so a quick google in the UK area nets a few results at the top of this page:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=EZ+line+uk+supplier

 

To be honest,  I think it's possible any brand of line that has that stretchy rubbery characteristic tends to have a flat profile, but then the only other brand I have tried other than EZ Line is Uschi.   It would be good to see more comments about this and what others have experienced.

 

 

regards,

Jack

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I'm currently rigging up a WnW F2b and I've gone for Prym knitting elastic for the flat wires (as suggested by WnW) and appropriate sized fishing line for the round wires. Apart from the obvious online sources the Prym can be bought from Hobbycraft in the UK (in the sewing section) and the fishing line from anywhere - I think mine came from Decathlon. The elastic is easy to use as long as you avoid twists, but on the downside it doesn't add any strength to the model. As others have pointed out the flat wires shouldn't have turnbuckles, instead having a sort of built-in adjuster at each end that's short and little thicker than the "wire", so if you don't use them it will be easier and look more like the original. For the control line turnbuckles I'm trying some Gaspatch turnbuckles and some PM etched ones, but may leave these off as well if neither looks right.

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10 hours ago, Bazman said:

I'm currently rigging up a WnW F2b and I've gone for Prym knitting elastic for the flat wires (as suggested by WnW) and appropriate sized fishing line for the round wires. Apart from the obvious online sources the Prym can be bought from Hobbycraft in the UK (in the sewing section) and the fishing line from anywhere - I think mine came from Decathlon. The elastic is easy to use as long as you avoid twists, but on the downside it doesn't add any strength to the model. As others have pointed out the flat wires shouldn't have turnbuckles, instead having a sort of built-in adjuster at each end that's short and little thicker than the "wire", so if you don't use them it will be easier and look more like the original. For the control line turnbuckles I'm trying some Gaspatch turnbuckles and some PM etched ones, but may leave these off as well if neither looks right.

Thanks for this info. I’ll use the Prym for the flat wires. Not yet sure what I’ll use for the rest.

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There is a lot of good advice here and will add my little bit. 
  I use EZ Line and Uschi.  Like someone said the larger sized EZ line is flat if not stretched too much.  Uschi stretchy line is circular and I use the thin and medium line for the thinner rigging. I find the Uschi line difficult to use due to the electro-static charge it seems to generate?  It sticks to my tweezers!
  I do not use any turnbuckles as they all appear too large to me?  You can allude to buckles with paint if you need to.  
The only other thing I use is the eyelets from Bobs Buckles inserted into pre drilled holes.  

This makes rigging very straight forward for me. I insert them before I construct the model.  

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1 hour ago, Bear Paw said:

There is a lot of good advice here and will add my little bit. 
  I use EZ Line and Uschi.  Like someone said the larger sized EZ line is flat if not stretched too much.  Uschi stretchy line is circular and I use the thin and medium line for the thinner rigging. I find the Uschi line difficult to use due to the electro-static charge it seems to generate?  It sticks to my tweezers!
  I do not use any turnbuckles as they all appear too large to me?  You can allude to buckles with paint if you need to.  
The only other thing I use is the eyelets from Bobs Buckles inserted into pre drilled holes.  

This makes rigging very straight forward for me. I insert them before I construct the model.  

http://www.silverwings.pl/reviews/tipshowtos/biplane_rigging/Biplane_Rigging.pdf
Thanks for your input Bear Paw, I didn’t realise this rigging task was going to get so complicated, if I haven’t bitten off more than I can eat, it’ll keep me busy for weeks. I found the above link as to how to rig an aeroplane. I take it, when using Bob’s Buckles, you trim them to length to suit the depth of the wing they are attached to ? I’ll need a fair few for this Camel, I have to say though the task looks very daunting and that the rigging drawing on the Wingnut Wings Page for this model is not very helpful. Do you use a single size of line for all rigging and control cables ? Any further advice you can offer will be most appreciated, as this is going to be my first attempt at building a WW1 biplane.

http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/productdetail?productid=3150&cat=4

 

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I have just recently come up against the same thing. I bought very thin monofilament for round rigging wires. I am in hospital at the moment so cannot measure it (or photograph it which would also be useful) but got some that was very close to 0.015 and some that is definitely thinner (we just went to a lighter breaking strain as this was from a fishing shop). I shall have to try and measure this with my Lidl calliper when the wonderful NHS release me. There is definitely a visual difference in the two types I have, and the small stuff looks fine on fuselage rigging. Fuselage cross wires would be turnbuckled but I think an overscale turnbuckle looks much worse than none at all and you generally can only see the top ends on the fuselage rigging when it goes together.  Someone on here suggested heat stretchinh good old plastic drinking straws so they can just be slid  over the monofilament. I may give this a go for the elevator or rudder wires where the turnbuckle is at the elevator/rudder end clear of the aircraft, so no panels have to be removed to adjust.

 

As for RAF wires, prym is just a brand that is not easy to get in the Uk. I simply walked into a wool shop in Portsmouth and asked for the thinnest rectangular ‘knitting-in elastic’ they had. It is used with wool to make stretch tops on socks ìand stuff without having to resort to the old-style multi width ‘knicker’ elastic of times gone by. The lovely (absolutely stereotype knitting shop type lady) sorted me out with something and the whole lot, plus the running around probably cost me a fraction of what the named stuff would have.

 

I will report more when I have escaped from Stalug Luft Queen Alexandra, and if you thought they had it hard at Colditz, try digging a tunnel from the 6th floor oncology ward!! Joking aside they are excellent in here.

 

Oh and as was mentioned above, the whole streamlined wire acts as its own turnbuckle, each end fitting is opposite threaded. Using a padded too to slip over the flat section, it is turned from both ends, so that it remains sharp side onto airflow. I do have pictures at home but....

 

now, back to my NHS issue hot chocolate

 

Edited by melvyn hiscock
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1 hour ago, melvyn hiscock said:

I have just recently come up against the same thing. I bought very thin monofilament for round rigging wires. I am in hospital at the moment so cannot measure it (or photograph it which would also be useful) but got some that was very close to 0.015 and some that is definitely thinner (we just went to a lighter breaking strain as this was from a fishing shop). I shall have to try and measure this with my Lidl calliper when the wonderful NHS release me. There is definitely a visual difference in the two types I have, and the small stuff looks fine on fuselage rigging. Fuselage cross wires would be turnbuckled but I think an overscale turnbuckle looks much worse than none at all and you generally can only see the top ends on the fuselage rigging when it goes together.  Someone on here suggested heat stretchinh good old plastic drinking straws so they can just be slid  over the monofilament. I may give this a go for the elevator or rudder wires where the turnbuckle is at the elevator/rudder end clear of the aircraft, so no panels have to be removed to adjust.

 

As for RAF wires, prym is just a brand that is not easy to get in the Uk. I simply walked into a wool shop in Portsmouth and asked for the thinnest rectangular ‘knitting-in elastic’ they had. It is used with wool to make stretch tops on socks ìand stuff without having to resort to the old-style multi width ‘knicker’ elastic of times gone by. The lovely (absolutely stereotype knitting shop type lady) sorted me out with something and the whole lot, plus the running around probably cost me a fraction of what the named stuff would have.

 

I will report more when I have escaped from Stalug Luft Queen Alexandra, and if you thought they had it hard at Colditz, try digging a tunnel from the 6th floor oncology ward!! Joking aside they are excellent in here.

 

Oh and as was mentioned above, the whole streamlined wire acts as its own turnbuckle, each end fitting is opposite threaded. Using a padded too to slip over the flat section, it is turned from both ends, so that it remains sharp side onto airflow. I do have pictures at home but....

 

now, back to my NHS issue hot chocolate

 

I found the Prym that WNW recommends on Amazon.

Get well soon.

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On 29/12/2019 at 13:16, Faraway said:

Thanks to everyone who has answered. As always, this forum has not let me down, it’s a mine of information. The turnbuckles, I think, will be a fiddle too far. The old eyes aren’t what they were. I will probably get two diameters of rigging, possibly from here. I think this subject is very open to interpretation, as to how accurate you want to be. I’m building kits for my enjoyment, not to be exhibited.

https://www.scalemodelshop.co.uk/products/accessories/auxiliaries/rigging

 

I agree with your sentiment about building for your enjoyment.

 

I'm very far from being an expert but I'm on my 7th wingnut kit now and all I've ever used is the prym knitting in elastic for everything. It looks fine to my eyes and there is a lot of stretchiness in it so you can overcome mistakes by snipping a bit more off and glueing again.

 

I dont know if it's any help but when glueing the rigging I used to use CA accelerator but for my last 2 builds I stopped using it and just held the wire in place for those few seconds longer (whilst trying not to shake too much 🙂) I find it easier now not to use accelerator. 

 

Good luck with your Sopwith Camel, that was my first wingnut kit that I bought. Good luck with the rigging of the bullet 👍

All the best, Martin 

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24 minutes ago, Faraway said:

I found the Prym that WNW recommends on Amazon.

Get well soon.

I just have a personal thing about not wanting to give Amazon any business and two rolls of minofilament and the roll of elastic ‘prym impersonator’ came in at a spit over £4, and all less than a mile from home 

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6 minutes ago, melvyn hiscock said:

I just have a personal thing about not wanting to give Amazon any business and two rolls of minofilament and the roll of elastic ‘prym impersonator’ came in at a spit over £4, and all less than a mile from home 

Try Here or Here or Here I've used the latter in the past without any issues.

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On gluing; I use Rocket Rapid superglue and a 'glue loop' to apply. The superglue sets in just a few seconds and I can get a 1/72 or 1/48 jobbie rigged up fairly fast

 

PS. Might I add; the RAF wires on a 1 1/2 Strutter are about 3/8 inch wide by 1/8 inch thick - an estimate as I wasn't allowed to touch them to measure them. In 1/32 a flat elastic about 0.4mm / 0.5mm wide unstretched will narrow down upon stretching and be about the correct size

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7 hours ago, Black Knight said:

On gluing; I use Rocket Rapid superglue and a 'glue loop' to apply. The superglue sets in just a few seconds and I can get a 1/72 or 1/48 jobbie rigged up fairly fast

 

PS. Might I add; the RAF wires on a 1 1/2 Strutter are about 3/8 inch wide by 1/8 inch thick - an estimate as I wasn't allowed to touch them to measure them. In 1/32 a flat elastic about 0.4mm / 0.5mm wide unstretched will narrow down upon stretching and be about the correct size

I thought I’d give a UV curing glue a go. Tried activators and found they could go off a bit quick.

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I’ve just got my first spool of rigging material. As per the recommendation from WNW, I’ve got some Prym 977 770, which WNW says will replicate the aerodynamic wire on the Camel. Now this has got me wondering why I’m thinking of using different diameters for control and structural wires, simply because I can HARDLY see this tread, or even tell if it’s flat. So with this thread as an example, I’m pretty sure I won’t be able to see the difference between 0.10mm and 0.15mm, these being the two sizes they recommend. I have much to ponder, as I build for the enjoyment of bring kits to ‘life’. Not to make some super accurate replica.

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