Tri colour USN corsair colours?

[sapperastro]

Hello all and merry christmas,

 

I have been given a Tamiya 1/48 corsair as a present. Looks like a nice kit. Now, the only problem being that I have never covered this scheme before, so am slightly baffled by which colours to use. I usually use Humbrol as a backstop, with Revell and Model master available too. I am guessing white is the main underside colour, with a H 144 intermediate blue in the middle, but what about that very dark blue colour on top? Oxford blue looks a little too red? 77 Navy blue? 112 field blue?

 

Model master has colours labelled as the correct blues, so that is a possibility, but I would have to order them...

 

Revell is pretty weak in the blue department, and there doesn't seem to be anything worthy there.

 

So, if anyone has suggestions, preferably using the above ranges, but I am willing to listen to others so long as they are not lacquer paints.

 

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

[spitfire]

Sovereign Colourcoats have the paint that you need for that, they have an Australian distributor as well if my info is up to date.

https://creativemodels.com.au/shopmastery.php?cat1=SOVEREIGN+COLOUR+COATS&cat2=14ML&cat3=AIRCRAFT&cat4=USN%2FUSAAF%2FUSMC

More info on the Sovereign paints

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/collections/united-states-army-air-corps-united-states-air-force

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

 

[Toryu]

I can only echo Dennis 'spitfire'.  Colourcoats is the brand.  Creativemodels.com is currently restocking them, available after Christmas as they told me.  Humbrol H144 is a good intermediate blue (probably add some light blue to lighten for a more weathered effect).

The US Navy mid-war camouflage was actually a 4-tone colour coat; with matte sea blue on the leading edge and fuselage spine, and semi-gloss on the upper sides, but both colours merged into one over time.

 

Merry Christmas and have fun with your 'Hog', Michael

[Troy Smith]

 

this is one of those areas which the research isn't as well as known as it should be....

 

Quote

The scheme is actually four colors - white, Intermediate Blue, ANA 606 Semi-gloss Sea Blue (atop the wings and horizontal tail), and ANA 607 Non-Specular Sea Blue (atop the fuselage and on leading edges of the wings and stabs). The last two colors differ in more than the gloss factor - non-spec is distinctly grayer and lighter than the semi-gloss. I generally refer to the scheme as 4-color to clarify the differences.

There was a later version where all of the paints were glossy - it wasn't seen often, but it certainly was a three-color scheme.

Cheers,

Dana

 

 

ANA606 Semi-Gloss Sea Blue

ANA607 Non-Specular Sea Blue

ANA608 Intermediate Blue

 

the diffference in upper surface finishes does not photograph well, but is visible here

 

 

@Mike Starmer  did a mix for ANA 623 Gloss Sea Blue  using Humbrol 77, and  this maybe OK  as a basis for the ANA606 band ANA 607

 

But, as the linked thread shows, the only company making accurate range of US Navy blues is Colourcoats.

 

HTH

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

1 hour ago, Toryu said:

Creativemodels.com is currently restocking them

This is true. Stew and I spent Sunday 22nd manufacturing. I've got a tonne left to do over the Christmas holidays. Lucky I've got time off my real job...

[fewr9fkr9595]

Just put out of interest- what was the reason in it being a 4 colour scheme? I am probably missing the obvious but what’s the point in having the upper surfaces of the wings in a slightly different colour?

Is it because the semi gloss paint was smoother for airflow over the wings? 

Tony

[Troy Smith]

5 minutes ago, Tony Oliver said:

Just put out of interest- what was the reason in it being a 4 colour scheme?

good question.   I think that @Dana Bell would be the chap for that.

They USN did switch to a 3 color full gloss, and the to overall ANA 623 Gloss Sea Blue not long after that it seems.

5 minutes ago, Tony Oliver said:

I am probably missing the obvious but what’s the point in having the upper surfaces of the wings in a slightly different colour?

I am guessing here,  the colour difference is not much, so I presume it was just as the difference in gloss made for a different paint formulation that was close enough. Again, if the reasons are still known, @Dana Bell  would know.

5 minutes ago, Tony Oliver said:

Is it because the semi gloss paint was smoother for airflow over the wings? 

This I doubt, as the smoothness on the leading edge is the crucial area,  I would suspect this was more to do with pilot glare issues, but given the later gloss schemes, maybe not the problem it was thought to be?

 

Sorry, a rather fluffy answer,  mostly done to try to get Dana posting, also @Tailspin Turtle may have some insights as well.

 

Hope this winkles out some real answers! 

 

[pat d]

The semi-gloss sheen to the upper wings and stabilizer  aft the leading edge  mimicked the sheen of the sea when viewed from above. The dark sea blue and the semi gloss sea blue were actually 2 different colors, Sovereign Colorcoats has these colours exactly correct to the ANA colours, dead on and accurate. Good stuff!

Edited December 25, 2019 by pat d

[fewr9fkr9595]

46 minutes ago, pat d said:

 

The semi-gloss sheen to the upper wings and stabilizer  aft the leading edge  mimicked the sheen of the sea when viewed from above.

 

 Yes fair enough but then why not have it on the uppers of the fuselage too? Or the whole wing including leading edge? Doesn’t really answer the question... 

[fewr9fkr9595]

49 minutes ago, pat d said:

The dark sea blue and the semi gloss sea blue were actually 2 different colors,

Yes we are all happy with that fact. The point/question I posed is why were they 2 different colours? 

[fewr9fkr9595]

51 minutes ago, pat d said:

Sovereign Colorcoats has these colours exactly correct to the ANA colours, dead on and accurate. Good stuff!

Agreed. Used their Spitfire, RLM and modern USN stuff. Couldn’t be happier with shades & quality of the paint. Have the WW2 USN ana stuff in the stash and plenty of 72nd eduard hellcats for the future 👌🏽

[pat d]

The idea was to mimic the sea sheen when seen from above, hence a semi gloss. The leading edges were non specular to prevent a glint from a head on view. The Navy developed this scheme to provide the most effective camouflage from all aspects of the view of the A/C, top bottom, sides and head on even to the point of adding counter shadowing under the stabilizer. I assume that the Navy decided not to do the spine in semi gloss as it was a curved surface which reflects light easier than a flat surface - OR- possibly it was a production time saver? 

As to the 2 different colors of semi gloss and non-specular that is a question for Dana as to why the paints were formulated that way, but the Navy ordered a flat and semi-gloss dark sea blue which were somewhat different colors. I would assume that experimentation proved that the 2 slightly different colors and sheens were the most effective. 

Later with the overall glossy dark sea blue scheme, it was still effective camouflage, by that time the Navy was in a more air superiority position but also helped with some extra speed and anti- corrosion not to mention saving on production time. At one point in 1945 Grumman rolled more than 700 F6Fs off the line in ONE month, production figures which will probably never be seen again.

[sapperastro]

Hello all,

 

I was afraid it would come to this. While I love using Colourcoats paint, sometimes the wait for new paints to come in stock here is unbearable. I am still waiting for a couple of colours that have been on order for 4 months...haha.

 

The information regarding the 4th tone is a godsend though. Does anyone know what the outer undersides of the corsair wings were painted? Was it the intermediate? Or the '4th' blue?

 

Thanks again guys. This place is always a goldmine of information and helpfulness.

 

 

[Richard Humm]

8 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Note that the diagram shows the fuselage sides as a graded tone area rather than Intermediate Blue. IIRC, Vought were the only manufacturer to actually produce aircraft with a graded finish on that area, going from White to Sea Blue as a continuous change of colour rather than one different colour in between.

[Dana Bell]

Evening everyone!

 

Hope you've all been enjoying a Merry Christmas!  I took a break to check my favorite news groups and found my name on this thread.  It looks like most of the questions have already been settled and answered, but a few things still require a note or two.

 

After a series of experiments the Navy determined that a bit of glare reflection could be more visible than the rest of a matt-painted aircraft.  The choice of semi-gloss upper wing surfaces was made primarily to smooth airflow over the wing and ease maintenance.  However, the glare off curved surfaces was considered a problem, so non-specular (there's a Navy-invented word for you!) paint was substituted along leading edges, wingtip downturns, and fuselage spines.  (The Navy continued to search for a means of reducing canopy glare, but I haven't found evidence that they succeeded.)

 

The difference in colors between non-spec and semi-gloss was not intentional - it was more a result of the different chemistry for the two paints.

 

The undersides of Corsair wing panels were to be Intermediate Blue; they were considered vertical surfaces when folded.

 

Many modelers also show the differences between the Semi-gloss Sea Blue lacquers on metal surfaces and Semi-gloss Sea Blue on fabric surfaces.  If you chose to display this effect, remember that the wing fabric continued all the way to the outer edges of the wingtips.  Aircraft camouflaged for Britain did not show a difference between the fabric and aluminum surfaces - the aircraft were painted overall with enamels.

 

It's true that many Corsairs carried a graded pattern of N/S Sea Blue down the white fuselage sides - a real paint to replicate in any scale!  The paint erosion due to weathering makes modeling such aircraft an even more adventurous undertaking.  (One day I hope to try the effect using tooth paste to wear away the excess paint.)

 

One last thing to remember with Corsairs in the 4-tone graded camouflage scheme - the Bureau of Aeronautics was insistent that there be no hard-line demarcation between adjacent camouflage colors.  So where the Intermediate Blue vertical tail met the N/S Sea Blue rear fuselage, the Sea Blue was carried up the tail several inches.  Where the Intermediate Blue undersides of the outer wing panels (applied by a subcontractor) met the White center wing section, a fresh overspray of Intermediate Blue was applied across the wing joint.  (The fresh Intermediate Blue rarely matched what had been applied by the subcontractor.)  In at least one case, Vought oversprayed the center section white onto the Intermediate Blue outer wing panel, but this white interfered with the camouflage effect when the wings were folded.

 

On earliest 4-tone aircraft, when the Sea Blue fuselage camouflage was feathered down the the fuselage sides, the Sea Blue wing camouflage was sprayed up the fuselage sides a few inches to break up the intersection with the white paint.

 

I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch of stuff  here.  Enjoy the rest of the holidays and enjoy the kit - all those Tamiya Corsairs are a joy to work with!

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Dana

 

 

[e8n2]

8 hours ago, sapperastro said:

Hello all,

 

I was afraid it would come to this. While I love using Colourcoats paint, sometimes the wait for new paints to come in stock here is unbearable. I am still waiting for a couple of colours that have been on order for 4 months...haha.

The only U.S. distributor for Colourcoats last did a restock over 18 months ago and no idea when, or if, he will ever do another restock.  Please, Jamie, as I asked before, get another U.S. distributor!

Later,

Dave

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

24 minutes ago, e8n2 said:

Please, Jamie, as I asked before, get another U.S. distributor!

@Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Whats involved ? If its something i could do within the restraints of disability law I would consider it ? 

Edited December 26, 2019 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

1 hour ago, e8n2 said:

The only U.S. distributor for Colourcoats last did a restock over 18 months ago and no idea when, or if, he will ever do another restock.  Please, Jamie, as I asked before, get another U.S. distributor!

Later,

Dave

 

55 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

@Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Whats involved ? If its something i could do within the restraints of disability law I would consider it ? 

 

Gents, I'll be brief as I don't want to derail the thread.

 

In essence though dealers/distribution in this industry works by business-to-business sales. I sell to a US based business for a goods + shipping price. US business pays any and all import duties or tarriffs, sets their own retail prices, needs their own customer facing sales outlet, their own shipping means etc. It's not something we can run from the UK for a whole string of reasons.

 

All that said, there is another established business in the USA whom I think will become the next dealer. He feels he's better known for ship products so is going to use his cash stocking those first, with a limited aircraft range initially.

 

Part of our difficulty is volume. We were well on track during 2017 to properly hiring Stew, but 2018 was grim and 2019 dire. Lots of UK model businesses saw the same. We had no trade orders except for a minor top up to the Netherlands both years and for cashflow we had to run down stocks a bit. Now we've been hit by 3 trade orders in 6 weeks with the threat of another in January and we don't have enough to fulfil them all - but we still don't have production capacity to magic this stuff out of thin air and still not strong AND PREDICTABLE enough sales to hire Stew - so we're stuck with Stew very generously using his annual leave and me working a senior management career during the days, making paint during my weekends and wondering why I only finished 2 quick build models in 2019 and still haven't got my MG Midget running!

 

 

[Rolls-Royce]

6 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

 

...and still haven't got my MG Midget running!

 

 

Cool little car, the Midget. My first car was a '64 A-H Sprite Mk II with the "big" 900+ cc engine and bolt-on side curtains. Fun car, and perfect for the 70s fuel crisis. I still miss it sometimes. Loved the simple SU carbs.

Here's hoping your business smooths out in 2020, Jamie.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Rolls-Royce

[Crankycraftsman]

Hey sapperastro

 

 Vallejo has a set of acrylic water base paints for US Navy WW2 aircraft. 

#71157

US Navy & USMC Colors WWII 1940-1945

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

3 hours ago, Crankycraftsman said:

Hey sapperastro

 

 Vallejo has a set of acrylic water base paints for US Navy WW2 aircraft. 

#71157

US Navy & USMC Colors WWII 1940-1945

 

I happen to have that lying around so thought I'd compare them to my copy of Elliott's The Official Monogram US Navy & Marine Corps Aircraft Color Guide Vol.2 1940-1949

 

 

 

 

The light grey is a good match.

[Clifton]

On 12/25/2019 at 5:10 AM, sapperastro said:

Hello all and merry christmas,

 

I have been given a Tamiya 1/48 corsair as a present. Looks like a nice kit. Now, the only problem being that I have never covered this scheme before, so am slightly baffled by which colours to use. I usually use Humbrol as a backstop, with Revell and Model master available too. I am guessing white is the main underside colour, with a H 144 intermediate blue in the middle, but what about that very dark blue colour on top? Oxford blue looks a little too red? 77 Navy blue? 112 field blue?

 

Model master has colours labelled as the correct blues, so that is a possibility, but I would have to order them...

 

Revell is pretty weak in the blue department, and there doesn't seem to be anything worthy there.

 

So, if anyone has suggestions, preferably using the above ranges, but I am willing to listen to others so long as they are not lacquer paints.

 

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Yes, Testors does have most of the colors, in both enamels and acrylics.  They used to make a non-specular (flat) sea blue, but it looks like that might be one of the colors that they've dropped in the past few years.  (Like Desert Sand ANA 616--don't get me started on that one!)

 

Here are the numbers for the enamels:

Dark Sea Blue (FS15042) #1717 (Gloss)

Intermediate Blue (FS35164) #1720 (Flat)

Insignia White (FS37875) #1768 (Flat)

 

The numbers for acrylics:

Dark Sea Blue #4686 (Gloss)

Intermediate Blue #4744 (Flat)

Insignia White #4769 (Flat)

 

I hope this helps, in case you have difficulty finding other paints.  I wish Jamie good luck with the Colourcoats paints; I was just able to buy a few paints from the US distributor before Christmas and I can't wait to try them!

 

BTW--I know that Tamiya includes paint numbers in their instructions referencing their paints, but I think the consensus is that their mixes are pretty inaccurate.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Clifton

[sapperastro]

Thanks chaps,

 

Tamiya just throws their spray can codes at you and moves on. My first preference of paint is Enamel, followed by acrylic. I don't use lacquers as the thinning agent for them seems to destroy my brain and give me a migraine from hell, even with mask, extractor, etc. I also like to have a paint I can brush with as well. I will hassle out the local Colourcoats seller here and see whats cooking regarding restocks, and after I get an answer I will see what happens after that.

 

Regarding the Model master paints; I actually have better results with their acrylic than enamel (though this wasn't the case years ago before they changed their enamel formula).

 

If worst comes to worst, I will see if I can mix up some paints from my current enamel stocks and go for tone rather than exact colours. I have done that before, and weathering usually hides the sins well.

 

Thanks again everyone.

[e8n2]

On 12/25/2019 at 11:50 PM, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

All that said, there is another established business in the USA whom I think will become the next dealer. He feels he's better known for ship products so is going to use his cash stocking those first, with a limited aircraft range initially.

Please tell me that it's not True North!  Yes they make good paints but so far in my experience their customer service is abysmal.  On my first order, one of the bottles of 5-N broke open.  I sent them an e-mail through their internal e-mail system.  A couple of weeks later I sent a second e-mail to them asking why they hadn't responded to the first e-mail.  Still silence.  A second order followed with no problems but I was hoping they would have made good on the broken bottle from the first order.  Nothing.  I sent in another order with no problem and then another which included two bottles of modern USN Haze Grey, FS 26270.  I received two bottles of 5-H Haze Grey.  I have sent them another e-mail on their internal system.  Still no answer!  I am tempted to send them the two bottles of 5-H that I did not order along with the broken bottle of 5-N in the box that the broken 5-N came in with a letter asking them to fix the problem and give me what I ordered and to make good on the broken bottle of paint, however I fear that I will never get what I ordered or am due.  I will probably have the credit card company raise hell with them about why they can't respond to their customers when problems come up.  Yes True North makes good paints that you can order without a minimum order like H&B the current U.S. distributor, but follow up customer service when there is a problem is, so far in my experience, non-exsistant.  Sprue Brothers would be better as they have an established presence, good service, and would probably be more willing and able to take on more of the Colourcoats range.

Later,

Dave

[e8n2]

An update to my last post in this thread:  The credit card company came through for me and I finally heard from Jamie at True North (NOT the other Jamie with Colourcoats!).  The situation has now been resolved.  Here is a part of his reply to me after my explaining what had happened:

 

"I can only ask that you believe that I have not received any emails through the contact page on the website. I am as of now working with squarespace to remedy this as it is completely unacceptable. I am deeply sorry for this Dave, this is not how I do business. As the modeling community is relatively small I respond to each and every question and I have no record of your email, and I have had issues with emails associated with the site before, obviously I still have problems there.

I will of course send you a new 5-N Navy Blue, and the correct 2 bottles of Modern USN Haze Grey."

 

Time will tell.  Just waiting to be notified that the paints have shipped, although on my second order, the one prior to the one with the wrong paints being sent, I never did get a shipping notification.

Later,

Dave