Gladiator instrument panel?

[keithjs]

Before I get too carried away can anyone confirm that the Mk.I and possibly the Mk.II had a redish bakerlite coloured instrument panel please? I know the panels are different with the Mk.II having a typical blind flying panel but was the rest of it still that colour?

Pictures of the supposedly un restored Swedish one is definately that colour but what about the RAF ones?? Even the Eduard sets in 48th are that colour too but I wondered if they might have been copied from restored examples? Thanks in advance.

[Work In Progress]

The standard 6-pack blind flying panel is black on literally every example I have seen on an RAF or FAA aircraft.

This includes the one on the Cosford Gladiator, K8042. This is how I do my Gladiator II cockpits...

 

 

... unless I am doing one that I know to be different like the Shuttleworth Gladiator which has an all-black panel. I haven't seen inside the lovely Fighter Collection one at Duxford.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Work In Progress

[Selwyn]

On 12/23/2019 at 10:51 AM, Work In Progress said:

The standard 6-pack blind flying panel is black on literally every example I have seen on an RAF or FAA aircraft.

This includes the one on the Cosford Gladiator, K8042. This is how I do my Gladiator II cockpits...

 

 

... unless I am doing one that I know to be different like the Shuttleworth Gladiator which has an all-black panel. I haven't seen inside the lovely Fighter Collection one at Duxford.

Please be aware that some export  gladiator aircraft had panels to the customer specifications  finnish marked gladiator

 

Selwyn

[dogsbody]

So, for RAF, per-war and wartime, were the instrument panel's all black?

 

 

 

Chris

[Work In Progress]

Yess, that's the Swedish museum example referred to in the first post, it is a Swedish contract J-8A, and the question is about RAF ones. 

9 hours ago, Selwyn said:

Please be aware that some export  gladiator aircraft had panels to the customer specifications  finnish marked gladiator

 

Selwyn

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Work In Progress

[Work In Progress]

14 hours ago, dogsbody said:

So, for RAF, per-war and wartime, were the instrument panel's all black?

 

Well, you've already seen my take, which is that on an aircraft fitted with the blind flying panel I prefer to adopt the pattern shown by K8042 if representing an in-period RAF / Royal Navy aircraft.

 

You need to differentiate between the fundamental instrument panel - the big vaguely semi-circular thing - and the things attached to it.  For those fitted with standard blind flying panels, either as new or retrofitted, the blind flying panels themselves (the central rectangle containing the usual six blind flying instruments) were black.

 

For the actual instrument panel itself, and for those which were not fitted with the standard blind flying panel,  I am in no hurry to paint one black when representing a WW2 service aeroplane.

 

I can't disprove the possibility of some Gladiators having black instrument panels during WW2. It is easy to imagine a black instrument panel on an aircraft that had been retro-fitted with blind flying panels at maintenance units, which might have involved removing, modifying or replacing and re-fitting the whole instrument panel, but I stress that's a chain of pure supposition and  I have zero  evidence for it.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Work In Progress

[dogsbody]

I was just wondering, as I have two Airfix Gladiators and the instrument decals are black and the instructions call for black. I do know the the colour call-outs on kit instructions can be way off. The engine gear casing colour call-out for these kits is Humbrol 11 Silver, when in reality, these were painted semi-matte black.

 

 

 

Chris

[galgos]

On 26/12/2019 at 23:34, Selwyn said:

Please be aware that some export  gladiator aircraft had panels to the customer specifications  finnish marked gladiator

 

Selwyn

How do you know this was specifically asked for by Finland and not the standard RAF IP of Gladiators circa 1937? 
Max 

[Selwyn]

1 hour ago, galgos said:

How do you know this was specifically asked for by Finland and not the standard RAF IP of Gladiators circa 1937? 
Max 

I don't.  But  as the panel is so different, and  the aircraft was not ex  RAF stocks  it would make sense that it was part of the customer spec.

 

Selwyn

[Work In Progress]

2 hours ago, galgos said:

How do you know this was specifically asked for by Finland and not the standard RAF IP of Gladiators circa 1937? 
Max 

It wasn't asked for by Finland at all - see earlier post. It is a Swedish contract J8A, delivered direct to the Swedish air force in 1938, and continuously owned by Sweden, which is why it is in the Swedish air force museum. It's only in Finnish markings because some Swedish air force pilots flew Swedish air force aircraft in those markings as a volunteer / loan detachment for the last couple of months of the Winter War Jan-March 1940, after which the survivors returned to Sweden.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Work In Progress

[keithjs]

Thanks for all the input everyone but it hasn't made things any clearer (for me at least )I'm afraid..... I have also just noticed that the Yahu panels are red/brown for the Mk.1 (without the BFP) and all over black for the MK.11 (with the BFP) 😕

[Work In Progress]

What are you actually building? What year / mark / likely mod state?

Edited December 28, 2019 by Work In Progress

[keithjs]

7 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

What are you actually building? What year / mark / likely mod state?

The new ICM 1/32nd kit from the box. Mk.1 607 Squadron LW-D 1939. No serial number known....Page 18 of Warpaint no. 37. Thanks.

[Work In Progress]

I would probably do that the reddish brown colour. The actual instruments are predominantly black of course. From what I've seen of the kit, the sprue shots over in LSP, the instrument panel they supply is the early type without the standard six-pack blind flying panel, and I'd just use that.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Work In Progress

[galgos]

Which is what I've done with my ICM Gladiator:

 

 

Max

[keithjs]

Yep, that's what I've gone for too. Be interesting to see if they change the instrument panel on their forthcoming Mk.II and the Sea Gladiator? Thanks for all the advice.

[Tomas Enerdal]

Interestingly enough, the Gladiator in the Swedish AF museum is no 278, a Gladiator II/J8A. Still it carries the single instrument panel, without the separe Blind Flying Panel, go figure...

EDIT: I just found a Finnish refererence here, stating that the Swedish instrument Gladiator II/J8A panels looked just like the Gladiator I/J8. Will have to look further... 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Tomas Enerdal

[Work In Progress]

They were not built for the RAF so why would anyone expect them to have the RAF's choice of blind flying panel for its own aircraft ordered after the date when it became a standard requirement for all RAF types?  Customers ordering new-build aircraft generally get what they order.  Seems reasonable to assume the Swedes wanted their J8As to give their pilots the same instrument scan as the J8s they already flew. 

 

Whereas for the RAF the issue was that they wanted to migrate to a position where the same blind flying scan worked for literally every pilot in every aircraft in service. Different military requirement, different build spec.

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Work In Progress

[Tomas Enerdal]

You're quite right!

I simply assumed that if they vere ordered as Gladiator II, they would look like the RAF version, including blind flying panel.

I will possibly have the answer to this in a week or so. Drawings of the instrument panel, and the mounted Revi-3a gun sight, exist in the Swedish War Archives, I will have a look ASAP (it will take a few days to retrieve the drawings, though) 

[Tomas Enerdal]

I had a look at the drawings yesterday, intersting!

The instrument panel drawing, dated 25-6-37, is an original Gloster drawing. Comments in English, showing Swedish placards with Swedish text. (There is even one mis-spelling on one of the placards).

The instrument panel looks exactly like the Yahu Gladiator I panels YMA7203 and YMA4831, brown bacelite and all. My guess is that all the Swedish instrument panels looked the same. (the very late serial 278 at the museum has it)

The Difference between the J8/Gladiator and J8A/Gladiator II seems to be only the type of engine fitted; J8 had both Bristol and licence built Mercury  VI S2 Engines while J8A had (the stronger) Bristol built Mercury VIII S3. Conclusions cannot be drawn from Swedish serial numbers (?) and/or delivery dates. they all came more or less continously between Oct'37 - jun'39, slightly out of sequence. All but the first two had two-blade wooden propellers. (the first two had three-blade fixed blade metal propellers).

Swedish Gladiators had Swedish mg's, m/22, very similar to .303 Brownings but without conical flash hiders.

They had reflector sights, Revi-3a, inside the windscreen , ring and bead outside, just in front of windscreen.

 

As mentioned in post #10 above, twelve Swedish J8A fought on Finnish side as a volunteer unit during the winter war. Three were lost, the rest returned to Sweden. Excellent decals have been made by SBS in 1/72 and 1/48.