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RAF Sabre F4 cockpit colour


Graham T

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Just about to start a build of the Eduard "Ultimate Sabre" kit as an RAF F4.  The instructions claim that the cockpit can be either light grey OR apparently black.  Black was AFAIK never used for US built a/c of any type but would be right for most RAF a/c of the time & might possibly also have been used by Canadair for their licensed builds of the Sabre(?) but can anyone confirm what would be correct?  If light grey, can anyone point to the best Humbrol colour?

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25 minutes ago, Graham T said:

Just about to start a build of the Eduard "Ultimate Sabre" kit as an RAF F4.  The instructions claim that the cockpit can be either light grey OR apparently black.  Black was AFAIK never used for US built a/c of any type but would be right for most RAF a/c of the time & might possibly also have been used by Canadair for their licensed builds of the Sabre(?) but can anyone confirm what would be correct?  If light grey, can anyone point to the best Humbrol colour?

The early US Sabres had black cockpits too, the change was made in the early 1950's, Canadair made the change on the Sabre 5s.

 

The very first three RAF Sabres were Sabre 2s, all of the remaining RAF Sabres were Sabre 4s, regardless of whether a Sabre 2 or a Sabre 4, these all had black cockpits.

Edited by Wez
Grammar, punctuation, the English language frankly deserves better!
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The order to change from black (on F-86s) to grey came down in November 1953.  That may or may not mean that a specific aircraft built after that date had a grey cockpit - that's when the directive came down.  Canadair Sabre cockpit colours are the subject of some debate here in the Great White North.  It is known that the Mk.6 all had grey cockpits, but there is debate about when or if the Mk.5s changed over from mostly black to grey.  

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38 minutes ago, NorthBayKid said:

The order to change from black (on F-86s) to grey came down in November 1953.  That may or may not mean that a specific aircraft built after that date had a grey cockpit - that's when the directive came down.  Canadair Sabre cockpit colours are the subject of some debate here in the Great White North.  It is known that the Mk.6 all had grey cockpits, but there is debate about when or if the Mk.5s changed over from mostly black to grey.  

 

In this photo of 421 squadron Sabre 5's, the first aircraft looks to have a black cockpit, while the one behind a grey one.

 

byxtGR2.jpg

 

 

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24 minutes ago, baldwin8 said:

In this photo of 421 squadron Sabre 5's, the first aircraft looks to have a black cockpit, while the one behind a grey one.

Which would corroborate what I said...

 

2 hours ago, Wez said:

Canadair made the change on the Sabre 5s.

Nice picture BTW, thanks for sharing.

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Here are a couple of cockpit detail shots of RAF Sabre 4's in temporary RCAF service. Note the other RAF/RCAF Sabre 4's in the background of the photos.

 

It appears to be pretty black in there. 😀

 

DND Canada photo PL-57737 RAF Sabre 4 XB750 cockpit detail.

jd96L1i.jpg

 

DND Canada photo PL-57735 RAF Sabre 4 XB750 cockpit detail.

3d4ZIcg.jpg

Edited by Steve in Ottawa
better image links
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5 hours ago, Steve in Ottawa said:

Here are a couple of cockpit detail shots of RAF Sabre 4's in temporary RCAF service. Note the other RAF/RCAF Sabre 4's in the background of the photos.

 

It appears to be pretty black in there. 😀

 

DND Canada photo PL-57737 RAF Sabre 4 XB750 cockpit detail.

https://imgur.com/jd96L1i

 

DND Canada photo PL-57735 RAF Sabre 4 XB750 cockpit detail.

https://imgur.com/3d4ZIcg

Hi

Thanks for this very fine clarification.

I would like to know HOW these changes from black to grey 36231 cockpits were made ? in the field ?

back to USAF or North American paint shops ? 

Cheers

SouthViper

 

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40 minutes ago, SouthViper said:

Hi

Thanks for this very fine clarification.

I would like to know HOW these changes from black to grey 36231 cockpits were made ? in the field ?

back to USAF or North American paint shops ? 

Cheers

SouthViper

 

You would make these changes either during production or at major repair and overhaul.

 

To properly paint a cockpit requires the total removal of all equipment, stripping back the wiring, hydraulics, oxygen and any other services to prevent damage or contamination. It means a great deal of disturbed systems functional testing. In other words, it's not something that you do lightly. You wouldn't just do it on a whim and you wouldn't do it unless you were prepared to weather the consequences.

 

I have 35 years in aircraft maintenance to base these assertions on.

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All interesting stuff. Forgive my silly question but given the hassle of a cockpit repaint why would the powers that be dictate a change of colour? I can see a change on the production line if it was thought important that internal cockpit colour should change but at overhaul? Also why would one scheme be more beneficial than the other. More pilot friendly perhaps?

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8 hours ago, Wez said:

I have 35 years in aircraft maintenance to base these assertions on.

8 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

Well I've got 39, so there

7 hours ago, sammy da fish said:

Now now children.

It's alright Sam, I thought Duncan's response was funny, no fisticuffs here.

 

7 hours ago, JohnT said:

All interesting stuff. Forgive my silly question but given the hassle of a cockpit repaint why would the powers that be dictate a change of colour?

1 hour ago, Tony Edmundson said:

ergonomics,  easier on the eyes, most likely

John,

 

What Tony said, I've only seen it done on a couple of aircraft and it was done very badly IMO.  One of them was a Canberra which looked as a pot of paint had been put in the cockpit and a thunderflash thrown in, the paint was thickly applied and adhering poorly.

 

What you may find is that individual panels/pieces of structure will be replaced but they will be painted in the current scheme, they'll have a different lustre and tonal different appearance, a lot of military aircraft cockpits will look like a patchwork quilt of variations of the same colour, some fresh, some worn, some dead matt, some less so rather than a consistent finish. 

 

The Americans painted a few F-15 cockpits in what was called "Foxbat Blue" once they'd got data on the MiG-25 that defected to Japan to asses whether it was better ergonomically than the dark gull grey currently specified by the USAF.  I'm guessing they concluded it offered no real benefit as F-15 cockpits stayed in dark gull grey after that (although I don't know what colour current F-15s cockpits are).

 

On a different note, Steve in Ottowa's pictures are really interesting as they show how an aircraft is nailed together, those rivets are flush not the indented divots that most people call rivets.

 

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11 hours ago, JohnT said:

Forgive my silly question but given the hassle of a cockpit repaint why would the powers that be dictate a change of colour? I can see a change on the production line if it was thought important that internal cockpit colour should change but at overhaul? Also why would one scheme be more beneficial than the other. More pilot friendly perhaps?

Not silly at all.  The RAF went through a similar exercise in the late fifties and early sixties, most obviously on the Shackleton and Lightning.  In the former the almost entirely black interior coupled with the cold, noise, vibration and lack of daylight, particularly for the rear crew, contributed significantly to crew fatigue so as Mk. 2 airframes went to Phase III modifications the interiors were re-decorated in cream and brown.to bring them in line with the Mk. 3s.  

 

Lightning cockpits went from black in the Mks. 1, 1A 4 and 2 to grey in the Mk. 2A onwards, so the Mk. 2s would have been repainted during the conversion process.  Strangely the Vulcan soldiered on “like a coal mine with switches” ‘til the bitter end but the Victor 2s got posh new interiors when converted for Blue Steel or reconnaissance duties bur, strangely, in an era of grey cockpits the Jaguar was black from start to finish: I blame the French  (they built the front ends).

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18 hours ago, SouthViper said:

Hi

Thanks for this very fine clarification.

I would like to know HOW these changes from black to grey 36231 cockpits were made ? in the field ?

back to USAF or North American paint shops ? 

Cheers

SouthViper

 


Cockpits would only have been repainted during deep depot level maintenance. Doing so would require a complete disassembly of the components and instruments. Not something you do on a Friday afternoon.

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