RMASG Centaur and Sherman

[Kingsman]

So, modelling mojo lacking recently.  Gave up on the WW1 Lanchester and Ford T without even starting.  Surveying the many shelf queens on the top shelf in the garage my eyes lit upon this pair which have become positively shelf royalty over several years.  Almost Dowager Shelf Queens!  Bought with the intention of finishing them as RMASG.

 

Simples, I thought……. But, ever wish you hadn’t started on something?

 

The kits have nothing in common except for RMASG markings – not even the same colour for painting - but I thought I’d run them both together. Vinyl/DS tracks to be replaced with plastic indy links on both plus the usual selection of etch, metal barrels, tow ropes etc.  I'm currently struggling to find some Bronco T54E2 tracks that would be age-appropriate for the M4A4 build date I’m looking at.

 

I have the Star marking sets for both.  I had bought the Peddinghaus versions to have a look at but decided against them as they come on solid carrier film necessitating very much trimming and I had a bad time getting his decals to conform to surfaces on a WW1 model.  The Tamiya Centaur kit markings have the advantage of being pre-perforated to fit over the turret bolts, so I think they will be tried first. In order to use the Star markings I had toyed with removing the moulded bolts, drilling out and replacing after paint and decal with Voyager after-market brass bolt heads.  Decided against ............

 

RMASG has been delved-into a number of times here and on other forums, most notably over on WW2Talk.  As we know, the unit had a very short operational life: disbanded on D+14.  Stubbornly little is actually known about their vehicles despite delving into the depthes of the National Archives (not by me!).  Of the 80 Centaur IVs in the unit, only 8 have been identified by name with only 6 of their T numbers known.  Of the 20 Sherman Vs, only 3 have been identified by name with only 1 T number known.

 

I wanted to do a pair from the same Troop, and fortunately the Sherman of H Troop 2nd Battery has been identified as “Hussar” along with H Troop Centaurs “Hood”, “Hound” and “Hunter” (as in the kit decals).  Hood and Hunter have known T numbers, but perversely I fancy Hound.  Decision made:  H Troop, 2nd Battery, 1 RMASR it is.  H Tp Left Section of 2 un-named Centaurs and the Sherman “Hussar” landed from LTIN 2016 (probably LCT(A) 2442) on JIG sector of SWORD beach at about 0730 on D Day, along with 2 Centaurs of Right Sect F Tp. 

However, I then discover that Hussar along with both the H Tp Centaurs and one from F Tp were knocked-out pretty much together by German artillery fire on the beach shortly after 0730 on D Day without playing much if any part in the action.  80% of the RMASR assets landed on JIG in the First Wave knocked out within minutes.  Bugger!!  Clean tanks, then – possibly still wet ……………….

 

For 2 hours that left only 1 Centaur from F Tp Right Sect in action on JIG.  F Tp Left Sect (Sherman + 2 Centaurs) landed at 0930.  G Tp Left Sect (same vehs) landed at 0950.  H Tp Right Sect of 2 Centaurs didn’t land until the late afternoon of D+1. E Tp Right Sect (2 Centaur) didn’t land until the morning of D+3.  The fate of Left Sections of E and G Tps, making up the balance of 2 Bty, seems unknown.

 

“Hunter” is seen in several photos in action, and so must have been one of the H Tp Right Sect tanks landed on D+1.  The name and fate of the other Right Section tank in H Tp is unknown.  It is possibly “Hood”, but that flaky assumption is based on its T number also being known.

I’m still toying with perhaps doing tanks from G Tp Left Sect, but no names are known so I would have to make them up.  All the known names are those of RN warships, so it wouldn’t be a completely blind guess.  Not completely: there are still 233 to choose from!  But those current during WW2 for destroyers and larger ships number less than 20.

[Kingsman]

THE CENTAUR IV

There have been several most excellent Centaur IV models posted on this forum in recent months, with which I cannot hope to compete.  Of course, that subject is a can of Worms, GS, Mk1 with Centaurs and Cromwells being difficult to decipher and lingering questions of colour. 

 

On the latter point I had believed it to be a safe working assumption that those fitted with deep wading gear were repainted in SCC15 as the work met the criteria for repainting while those not so fitted remained in SCC2.  But discussion on WW2Talk with those who know more on the subject concluded that there were both brown and green Centaurs and that all were wading-equipped regardless of colour.  Mike Starmer also notes in his booklet that some SCC2 tanks were present on D Day with “smaller units”.

 

I have the Accurate Armour wading gear set, but like an idiot I got the 75mm version.  I might just use the etched wading trunk as a pattern to make one from plastic card, and I wanted to show the covers removed anyway.

 

All the Centaur IVs were built by renowned locomotive builders John Fowler & Co, who built the 2nd- highest number of Centaurs (529) behind Leyland (643).  Centaur IVs were built on Type C and Type D hulls, with the “flat top” front fenders as kitted by Tamiya appearing on all Type Ds and the last few Type C’s.  Tamiya’s hull represents a late Type C but I decided to alter the engine deck to Type D. 

 

Fowlers were one of 3 companies who built both Cromwell and Centaur, although in their case twice as many Centaur as Cromwell (EE and Leyland built more Cromwells than Centaurs). It is therefore perhaps logical to assume that Fowlers used as many common parts as possible across Centaur and Cromwell production.  And here we come to the thorny question of idler adjusters.

 

The only Centaurs that can definitively be identified as Fowler-built are the IV CS and the III AA, both unique to them.   Photos of III AA tanks, which all seem to be sloping-trackguard Type Cs, all seem to show the “hockey stick” idler adjuster.  Photos of IV CS all seem to show the hockey stick type too – where it can be seen - on both Type C and Type D hulls.  So I believe we can say that Type D IVs certainly had the hockey stick type and that Type Cs probably did.

 

Interestingly, Saumur’s Centaur IV (in totally bogus colours and markings) has hockey stick idler adjusters (unless my eyes deceive me) yet also has the covers for the worm adjusters – but welded in place with the square drive holes plugged!  This could conceivably be a production variation using up stocks of the Centaur glacis plate – or it could be a Frankentank put together from non-original parts.   I haven’t been able to discern that configuration on another Centaur.

 

As for the missing RMASR numbers, the range of known numbers is 185075 - 186363.  That covers 1,288 tanks so any number in between for the 88 Centaur IVs built seems fair game.  Some sources say there were 118, but some also say that a number of Centaur IV were completed as Cromwell VI - which may explain the discrepancy.

 

Still musing over whether to risk pinning the tail on the donkey for some G Tp names.

[Kingsman]

THE SHERMAN

Surprisingly little is known about the Sherman Control Tanks.  It is well understood that they were school or depot Sherman V tanks hurriedly pressed into service and fitted with the dial sight, officially classed as OP Tanks.  There were variable build standards as 2 of the 3 known ones had M34 mantlets and 1 had M34A1.  Sherman V were in short supply heading towards D Day as production had finished in Nov 43 and we were very dependent on the 1,600 or so remanufactured US ex-training A4s which arrived over here in the proverbial nick of time.  An unexpected number of A4/Vs were additionally allocated to the DD programme and with several Regiments’ worth of A4/Vs already allocated for Crab conversions and about 25% of the total going for Firefly conversion, spare “vanilla” A4/V gun tanks were at a premium.  So they were scraped up from pretty much anywhere for RMASG.

 

M4A4s were the most homogenous Sherman variant as they were only built by Chrysler.  Notwithstanding, I’ve plotted 79 possible variations between July 42 and Nov 44 - the M4A4 production period.  So I’m thinking an “intermediate” build standard built between Nov 42 and Feb 43.  Later than DV but still with M34 narrow mantlet.  I bought some Dragon T62 indy links to replace the kit DS tracks but these are too late and I need to swap them for Bronco T54E2s –  which I can’t currently find.

 

Colour will be OD but I’ll need to muse further on census number and name.  Contrary to the depiction of some previous models, the Shermans were not painted in SCC2 Brown.  At least, there is no logical reason for them to be so.  US-supplied vehicles remained in OD unless they met the conversion or condition criteria for repainting.  The use of SCC2 from mid-42 to mid-44 on new-build British and Canadian vehicles was enforced by circumstance, not actually desired.  Everyone does “Fox” because it’s about the only one that can be identified and it was included in the Bison and Star decal sets.  I had though of Hussar but I’m leaning perhaps towards the G Troop vehicle – name unknown, though.

 

Anyway, enough of me prattling on.  Time for solvents, sharp blades and plastic to come together.

[Kingsman]

Some progress on the Centaur.  Basic structure together. Engine deck filled and re-scribed for Type D, holes drilled for handles.  Lost some locking keyholes in the process but fortunately there are some on the Voyager etch set.  Not enough to do all, but enough to do aft of the radiator intake and leave the moulded ones forward.  Headlight guard locations filled and re-drilled for wire ones.  There's a double line of flush screws down the glacis missing from the kit: etched screw heads in small holes.  Don't think I've done it very neatly.....  There are, oddly, also flush screws as well as bolts holding the towing eyes on.  The hull MG blanking plate is also held on with flush screws, not the bolts depicted by Tamiya.  Wheels are all just push-fit for now.  Tyres scuffed up a bit: these tanks didn't do a lot of mileage in training or after D Day.  RB Models BESA barrel and some aluminium tubing for the main gun. Bolt heads added along the trackguard edges at section joins.  Edges distressed a little and drilled where the sand shields would have been mounted and where the front and rear fenders are removed.

 

 

[JeroenS]

Interesting stuff! I'll be following this build, carry on please!

[Jasper dog]

Sure this will be fascinating,  I'll tag along with interest. 

 

Cheers

Darryl 

[Hamden]

 

Interesting project I'll follow along if I may?

 

   Roger

[fatfingers]

Nice pair of subjects and some great info. Will be following along. Fowler's works were in Hunslet, Leeds which is about a couple of miles down the hill from where i live. Its now the site of a Costco! 

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

 

 

[Bullbasket]

Good progress so far Peter. You've taken on quite a package with these two. They would represent about eight months work for me.

 

John.

[AntPhillips]

I'm in and will be following, I haven't got hold of a Centaur as yet, but there is a Cromwell shelf-queen hiding in amongst the stash, and lo and behold an Asuka M4A4 / V turned up in the post at work this morning 😉.

 

Does this boxing of the Dragon M4A4 have the revised hull parts of correct length as I recall that the original ones had an overlong lower hull?

[AntPhillips]

I've just checked this kit on Scalemates and it does have the revised tooling that was used in the Dragon 6182 Firefly Vc kit.

 

I built the original one (following the tweak and correction list from MilMod magazine) and will have a 6182 Vc kit following just behind the FrankenSherman  M4 Howitzer kit in my WIP thread.

 

I can't wait to see some Sherman progress.

[Kingsman]

Please feel free to look in, guys.  This might take me 8 months yet!  But at that rate the stash will last until about 2150 (and I don't mean 9.50pm!)!!  I thought I'd have a look at what was known of the RMASR vehicles before I tripped myself up.  Then I discover that I'd chosen subjects knocked out within minutes of hitting the beach.  Hardly ideal!

 

F Tp would of course include the Sherman V "Fox", as per Bison/Star decals and often modelled, which is why I thought of something different.

 

I have a theory that Dragon went wrong with their early A4 by using the idler position from a DD tank.  Sherman III and V DDs had the idler (but not the hull) extended rearwards in order to provide clearance for the drive for the propeller units.  The location is about right for their goof.  You do have to be careful with Cyber Hobby boxings as they can use old tooling and generally use DS tracks rather than indy links.  The Cyber Hobby Firefly IC uses the old composite hull tooling with the over-emphasised cast effect.  The IC kit to get is the one with Polish markings on the box art.

 

Ant - I have made up a chart of the M4A4 production variations over time from various sources if you're interested.  I'd decided I wanted to use an M34 narrow mantlet like Fox and it helped me establish the rest of the build standard for that production period.  I don't claim it to be in any way authoritative and I've "interpreted" some source conflicts.  Accepting that the difference between, say, March and April could be as little as 2 days or as long as 60 days.  At the rate Chrysler bashed them out, 60 days is a lot of tanks!

 

If I do decide to go down the G Tp line, I've narrowed the possible likely range of suitable-sounding Ships' names from 19 to 7: Gallant, Gurkha, Gladiator, Glorious, Greyhound, Griffin and Glory.  There would be 5 in a Troop.  Glory and Glorious probably mutually exclusive: too similar/confusing.

 

Both tanks will need to show the black Bostik sealant - liberally in the case of the dry-jointed riveted Centaur - and vestiges of the canvas mantlet covers, also sealed with Bostik.  Anyone got any bright ideas for doing this with a 3D effect, especially around the cover locations?

[Bullbasket]

7 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

Anyone got any bright ideas for doing this with a 3D effect, especially around the cover locations?

Try torn tissue paper, soaked in dilute PVA glue.

[AntPhillips]

12 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

.......Anyone got any bright ideas for doing this with a 3D effect, especially around the cover locations?

I'm sure I've seen it done with Humbrol Maskol too.

[Kingsman]

Interesting ideas. I have some "3D enamel paint" I bought in a craft shop, which I was thinking of trying: need to test it first. My worry about masking fluid is that it might not be permanent and paint on it might likewise not be permanent.  Otherwise I was thinking of perhaps using thinned putty or Citadel's Liquid Green Stuff, which is essentially pre-prepared thinned putty. 

 

Shermans in particular are often seen with remnanats of the canvas still attached to the sealant around the mantlet.  I keep thinking that cigarette papers might be useful but I suppose that craft tissue is probably just as thin.

 

And I've just noticed that I've goofed the blanking plate for the hull MG.  Centaur IVs do seem to have had bolts as per the kit, at least in every photo I can now find.  Now I'm looking, that is ...........!  The dozer conversions had flush screws, as did some Cromwells not fitted with hull MGs, but apparently not the Centaur IVs.  Correction required.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Das Abteilung
addition

[bigfoot]

Great project. I’ve got the same two kits in the stash for the same idea so will follow along to pick up tips and useful info if I may.

[Kingsman]

Quick change of plan re the Sherman.  Just spotted the Asuka M4A4 75mm on eBay new for £38 including shipping from Germany.  So I bought one.

 

Which means there are several after-market parts I no longer need to modify the Dragon kit, such as an M34 mantlet, smoke dischargers and open-spoke idlers to name 3.  So it works out at better value.  But the kit still needs some fettling.  The kit's vinyl T62 tracks will still go in the bin as they're vinyl with 2 joins and T54E2 tracks are appropriate to my build date. 

 

For all of Asuka's alleged Sherman-fu there are some inconsistencies with the kit.  They give early and late M34 and M34A1 mantlets without giving the track types appropriate to each build period.  T62s are only appropriate to M34A1 as a factory fit.  They don't give the padded lift rings appropriate to the M34 mantlet period.  And they say you can use open-spoke roadwheels and flat-plate sprocket rings, neither of which were ever used by Chrysler.  Open spoke idlers, yes at first.

 

At some point I was going to backdate a Dragon M50 into an early VVSS M4A4T-based M50 but maybe I'll recycle this Dragon M4A4 for that.  I have a Shapeways turret conversion.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Kingsman
Correction

[Kingsman]

Hello.  Been quiet on this for the last 3 months.  No modelling mojo...........................

 

Being furloughed I seem to now have all 7 days of the week on my hands, so have had a blitz on finishing construction of these 2.  I am regretting switching to the Asuka Sherman kit from Dragon.  Maybe mine was a bad kit but I had real flash, pronounced mould lines, belled edges that should be square and sinkage in awkward places like suspension arms, not to mention most roadwheels.  And there were 2 annoying parts missing: the mantlet type I wanted and a return roller.  Based on this I fail to see what everyone raves over.  But having said this I have a VC kit several years old (Tasca box) and the parts look a lot better.  Moulds clearly not holding up well.  The Dragon V kit will now be the basis for a Legend Crab conversion I managed to snag for £38, so nothing lost.  But the Tasca VC has been replaced with an RFM kit and now resides on the eBay pile.

 

Here's the Centaur.  Detailed up with Voyager and other parts.  Wading parts copied from an Accurate Armour set, also now on the eBay pile.  The rear trunking has been jetissoned and the commander's hatch cracked (it was sealed shut with Bostik, leaving only the loader's hatch open).  Someone has nipped out and peeled back the canvas covering over the driver's periscopes and front viewing port (so that he can actually see!) and removed the gun cover.  The residual Bostik here and elsewhere will be added after main painting.  I found some 3D paint in a craft shop that worked best after also trialling Mr Dissolved Putty and Citadel Liquid Green Stuff.  I thought of masking fluid but woried about its long-term durability.  And something self-coloured (black/grey) saves adding and then painting.

 

The loader's coaming was a head-scratcher.  Assuming that AA hadn't goofed the dimensions, it won't fit over the standard hatch locks. Indeed their own instruction photo shows it sat on top of them.  No, no no..........  Inside the coaming is an auxiliary plate that locks the hatch halves at 90^o, so it seems logical to assume that the usual hatch locks were removed - otherwise what purpose the plate.  So they got shaved off.  Another conundrum was how the coaming was attched: welded on or just held with Bostik? Both seem unlikely for different reasons.  However, corner gussets bolted into the vacant hatch lock locations seems entirely plausible.

 

Tracks will be HobbyBoss indy links and there will be a tow cable.  Can't face the tracks right now........  Turret lifting rings and spotlight are separate until after paint and turret markings.

 

Now for the Sherman.

 

It's a V of about Jan 43 production and the features are adjusted to suit. Like the padded lifting rings (Shapeways).  The M34 mantlet with ears I wanted to use was missing from the kit: grrrr.......  Anyway I opted for the Resicast covered mantlet that came with the half wading set.  This tank has likewise jetissoned the tops of the trunking.  The gun muzzle cover has been removed and the covers cut to allow the MGs to fire, but the crew have closed down again.  0.30 Browning is Academy with a Panzer Art ammo can.  Smoke dischargers from Resicast as the kit ones were too troublesome to clean up.  Likewise the kit tools, replaced with TWS and Panzer Art extinguishers.  Tracks will be Bronco T54E1 steel chevron, appropriate for that build date.  Those 450-odd parts are currently snipped off sprues but I can't face assembly just yet.  The turret is just perched on top at the moment.  Note the Dial Sight, copied from the one on the Centaur kit.  I bottled the early aircraft style sand shield fasteners under the sponsons, which can hardly be seen anyway

[Kingsman]

This thread is still alIve!  Just in the paint shop queue.....

 

I had second thoughts about the Sherman commander's hatch and decided to open it.  But ended up making a mess of trying to open it up.  Fortunately I had a Resicast replacement in the bits box and fitted that instead.  I might try a couple of figures - which I always shy away from.  The Miniart commander looking at his map board and compass in the cupola and a figure from their armoured car crew stood behind the turret looking through binos.  Infantry officer calling for fire and the FOO working out the directions for the Centaurs' guns.

 

While doing this I realised that I had indavertently fitted the wrong mantlet cover.  I'd configured the tank for an M34 mantlet and fitted the cover for the M34A1.  So that had to come off and be replaced.  Resicast give you both in the wading set.  This time I used a Dragon plastic barrel as I couldn't separate the resin one without risking breaking something that might later be useful and fitting a metal one would have been more difficult.

 

[bigfoot]

Great work on both the centaur and Sherman. Stealing plenty of ideas for when I get around to mine.

[Kingsman]

12 hours ago, bigfoot said:

Stealing plenty of ideas for when I get around to mine.

Where do you think I get mine from!

[Bandit1250]

Watching this one closely. Great work - my Centaur has been stuck in its box for more years than I care to mention. You're giving me the itch to dig it out!

[Kingsman]

Thinking of "stuck in its box for more years than I care to mention" I thought I'd better resurrect some of the dozen or so things on the Shelf Of Doom, including these 2.  Just to prove that I do actually make stuff and don't just spend my time talking about it........

 

Painting is about done and decalling has started.  I'm hoping the turret markings won't silver too much.  Lots of Microscale decal products  At the moment they have a different sheen so I won't know until the next varnish coat.  I used the kit markings on the Centaur as they were pre-punched to go over the turret side bolts, although the holes were a little out of place.  So I managed not to break into the Star decal set but I will need the Star set for the Sherman.  Colour-wise the OD on the Sherman is OK (they were NOT SCC2.....) but the SCC2 on the Centaur has come out a bit too green, more like Dark Earth.  See what it's like after finishing.

 

One change is that I decided to splash out on Masterclub tracks for both, having fallen out of love with Bronco's M4 tracks and the Airfix and HobbyBoss Centaur tracks.

 

Now just to decide on names.  As I said earlier I wanted the 2 from the same Troop but the only Troop where both Sherman and Centaur names are known is H Tp, but their Sherman and half their Centaurs were knocked out on the beach quickly and the other 2 including "Hunter" in the kit didn't land until D+1.  G Tp fared much better after landing at least the Left Section at about 0930, H+2., but no names are known.  As explained earlier, I've narrowed the possibilities down to these: Gallant, Gurkha, Gladiator, Glorious, Greyhound and Griffin. 

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Das Abteilung
addition

[Kingsman]

Look progress!  Miracles will never cease....

 

Maybe ended up a bit more weary and worn than I wanted.  I goofed the oil dotting by forgetting that I had visitors arriving later the same day after applying and couldn't get back to them for 5 days.  By which time they had set hard and I had to really scrub with thinners and a stiff brush to break them down.  That was using MiG Oilbrushers.  I wonder if normal oils would have set so hard so quickly.  But the effect might pass for salt spray having been up on deck.  My excuse and I'm sticking to it........ These 2 guys from 2 Bty G Tp Left Section would have landed at 0950hrs on D Day but their actions thereafter are not recorded.  Name-wise I went for Gurkha for the Centaur and Griffin for the Sherman, made from AFT waterslide lettering.  Could be right, could be wrong: no-one knows.

 

Turret decals were a nightmare on both and haven't come out as well as I would have liked.  Pre-punched holes in the wrong places by a couple of mm on the Tamiya kit decals and the Star Sherman decals needed to be cut into smaller pieces,  Fitting both over the pistol ports was a work of many sweary words!  Sealant is actually a black "3D enamel" from a craft shop.  Works OK from its own nozzle but that didn't get into tight corners and the stuff is very hard to use with a brush.

 

I'm thinking tracks, pigments and antennas from here.

 

 

 

[Troy Smith]

On 21/12/2019 at 22:20, Kingsman said:

craft tissue is probably just as thin.

I known you like different bits and pieces,  reading an old Military Modelling, a Stanley Catchpol article (yes, that old) mentioned using dressmakers tissue.  I can't remember what for right now, (flags?)   but seemed useful, so I got some off ebay. 

 

It's a bit stronger and smoother than usual tissue,  the Amazon listing has this

"Tissue paper is used in sewing patterns as the lightweight nature best mimics the movement of fabric" 

Since it's for dressmaking it comes in large sheets,  one pack should last a modeller forever...  (bit like your plasters scrim tape) 

 

I made this mantlet cover with it, though I used some tamiya tape for the top strips.  It behaved well with some thinned PVA.

50620293 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

 

On 21/12/2019 at 22:20, Kingsman said:

cigarette papers might be useful

the thinnest are usually the silver packet ones, certainly for Rizla brand,  but may have designs embossed on them.  You would probably want the king size as well,  explaining you want to try to replicate D-Day tank waterproofing would certainly be a novel reason for purchasing them...

 

Great work on the tanks, very informative build thread. 

cheers

T