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Hurricane IIc ( LF 363 ) canon stubs & camera port


Alan F

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Are there any good pictures of either the blanked canon stubs or the blanked camera apperture on LF 363 . I have seen the post elsewhere about the camera , but the link to a photo doesn't work anymore . I have also seen the photo of the fuselage post restoration , showing the aperture , so i know the position , but i don't know how it was blanked off , if it was a plate attached of doped over (flush or slightly concave ? ) was it an 8 inch camera ? and was that one on the port side the only one or was there one underneath as well ?

during the period i want to represent it as , it had the canon stubs still fitted , how were they blanked off ? , i have one A4 photo from the front but there is so much glare that you can't make out what the front off them look like . Once again any help much appreciated . Al

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42 minutes ago, Alan F said:

and was that one on the port side the only one or was there one underneath as well ?

AFAIK, port side only, and not underneath.

 

EDIT

Hawker-Hurricane-II-LF363-01.jpg

hatch look to just be doped over.

Note this has cannon stubs.  

For this, just leave out the cannons, and plug the ends

tru_2416_parts04.jpg

 

this shows the doors with the bulges, which may or may not be there. 

Quote

during the period i want to represent it as , it had the canon stubs still fitted , how were they blanked off ? ,

Cannons removed, and smooth blank front panels installed.

These are standard parts, and used now when the BBMF planes are marked as non cannon variants. there are also cannon bay doors without the feed bulges..

as seen here

Hawker_Hurricane_LF363_2a_(6116238658).j

 

The Trumpeter kit may have these as unused bits as they are need for the IId boxing. (EDIT they seem boxing specific)

 

I'll add some more when I check / find a couple of things,

 

EDIT

Overall the Trumpeter kits is very impressive.

It has a few glitches,  which may or may not bother you, but I think the spiiner is misshaped, and they have used a MkI type radiator and carb intake for the Mk.II kit.   

Let me know if you want more info on this.

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Troy ,Thanks for the opinion on the camera , i should have been more specific about the period i'm interested in , regarding the guns being removed .

I want to represent it at the time it was at RAF Waterbeach on the Station Flight , that was Sept 1st 1950 , it had it's guns removed in may 1951 for filming and had them refitted 18th Aug 1951 , it then went back to Waterbeach 6th Nov 1951 . The photo  I mentioned is dated as 1950's - but it does say it's being worked on by members of 56 sqn ( Waterbeach ) , i have another photo of it at Waterbeach in July 1953 , but it's a 3/4 rear shot and you can't see the stubs . But it clearly had the canon stubs still fitted when at Waterbeach .

 

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Thanks again Troy , I haven't got the kit here at moment - it's Christmas present , so i can't tell yet what's right or wrong - I knew about the spinner but any info you have regarding other parts / differences like the Rad / carb intakes i'd be very interested in , or where to find good pictures of the differences etc  .

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24 minutes ago, Alan F said:

or where to find good pictures of the differences etc  .

 

in my best Blue Peter mode, here's one I made earlier ...

 

Trumpeter have used the same bits in all their kits, so you get the Mk.II rad core in the Mk.I.... 

The tyres are block tread,  which maybe OK for a postwar plane, as some of the warbirds use them,  and the likely reason for the glitch.

 

Any questions/clarifications, just ask.

 

cheers

T

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Again , many thanks . I've read through the article you linked to , very informative , as i said i haven't seen the kit yet , so there will probably be more questions later . I did notice that the carb intake on the first photo ( comparison to Mk1 ) on the IIC looks different to the carb intake on BE 505 , the latter looking like much more of a sharp leading edge , compared to the radiused one on the first photo ( mesh on the first one and not on the second ) . Are these date specific production differences or is one tropical ?

Edited by Alan F
change of wording
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4 hours ago, Alan F said:

Are these date specific production differences

AFAIK, no.  

4 hours ago, Alan F said:

or is one tropical ?

No. The tropical filter is the big Vokes one. 

 

Typically not very clearly seen in wartime shots, this is reasonable

5243ab13e9e69f5f063598655410d74d.jpg

 

I think the one on BE505 is going to be a better reference. the one in the link was picked as I could fin it, and it showed the extra width.  

 

regarding the cannon and stubs, these show some interesting details

 

WAAF_armourers_and_flight_mechanics_serv

the photo is an oddity, and from the radiator, may show a very unusual Sea Hurricane IC (despite what every book says, it seems there were maybe 2 made..) from the radiator, as it's the Mk.I type....

But, shows the cannon mountings well

 

this shows the cover without cannons

Hawker_Hurricane_Assembly_MW336.jpg

 

this is a useful wartime shot of the Mk.II radiator

Hawker_Hurricane_assembly_radiator.jpg

 

 

One final point, many of these details are not well covered in Hurricane books,  if you read a post here on Hurricanes, which contradicts a book,  and is illustrated here,  then trust us here ;) 

This is why I try to post relevant images,  as they can explain so much more instantly.

 

If you are generally interested in the Hurricane,  this is well worth a read, though it does run for 61 pages... but will show what I mean about some fascinating details not widely known. 

a quick look has turned up this image

large_000000.jpg?_ga=2.263420812.1099681

 

showing the wider carb intake and mesh ice guard well.

 

cheers

T

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There was one Mk.II Hurricane converted to a Sea Hurricane Mk.I, which served on HMS Indomitable in the Indian Ocean and Operation Pedestal.  I don't know whether the radiator was changed or not, but  however this had a B wing, so we would still be facing some kind of hybrid.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've finally got the kit ( Trumpeter 1/24 IIc / trop ) bit of a cock up as thought it was IIc or Tropical , not just tropical , so a bit of scratch building required now ! I can confirm that whoever said the radiator intake was wrong is correct - interesting that they got the Rad , having the round oil cooler correct , but the housing wrong ? I did also get hold of the Scale plans No.55 and if they are accurate , then the spinner is , as it's identical to the drawing .

 

I also got a copy of The Hawker Hurricane by Richard A Franks , which has answered a few questions but given me some more . I did ask about how the gun housings were blanked off , as LF 363 still had these attached during the period i'm interested in . On page 38 there's a nice shot of 363 at langley prior to delivery . You can clearly see the guns aren't fitted and the housings are capped by fittings with a spherical end , which seem to be a cover on the outside of the housing , maybe 4 inches or so long . But it also clearly shows that there is a fitting or a cover ( as it's painted ) for a gun camera on the starboard wing , i think i can just make this out still on the photo of 363 which was captioned " Odiham 1946 - in silver dope " . So does anyone know for sure when this was removed ?

 

Also, having already asked about the camera on the side , Chris Sandham-Bailey states on page 72 of his BBMF mag that 2 F.24 cameras were fitted , from some documentation i presume ? if so , where was the other one positioned and was that still visible by the 1950's ?

 

Looking at the later photo's , i can't see the aerial wire from the mast to the tail . Was this removed at some point and something else fitted ?

 

Apologies if this is boring anyone , but i'd like to get it right if possible . Many thanks for the replies so far . Troy , i did read through the whole 61 pages of that other thread , some very interesting info there , thanks .

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1 hour ago, Alan F said:

I can confirm that whoever said the radiator intake was wrong is correct - interesting that they got the Rad , having the round oil cooler correct , but the housing wrong ?

me.  It's not a widely appreciated detail.  the carb intake even less so.  

1 hour ago, Alan F said:

 

I did also get hold of the Scale plans No.55 and if they are accurate ,

 

Hurricane plans are frequently wrong. This is often why.  

 

35568750533_1f3269b366_o.jpgHurricaneBentleynotescrop_zpsc6a2675f by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

Airifx did a IIc in 72nd about 15 years ago, which is a very good match to plans in authoritative Hurricane books,  which are garbage.

5 minutes looking at photos would have shown there are some serious shape errors. 

 

Given Trumpeters recent track records of making horrible shape errors on British subjects (DH Hornet, Vampire, Defiant, Firefly, Spiteful, Sea Vixen etc) then the story that was researched by someone else, not their research department,  seems correct.

And why they have not scaled this down is also a mystery.

 

 

1 hour ago, Alan F said:

 

 

then the spinner is , as it's identical to the drawing .

The spinner is not accurate, it's too blunt, and possibly too big at the base,  

 

hurricaneiic24jw_1.jpg

Hurricane-IIa-RAF-87Sqn-LKA-Ian-Gleed-BE

 

 

image.gif

Hawker-Hurricane-IIc-RAF-3Sqn-QOC-Z3068-

 

It's not really horrible (The 72nd Hasegawa and 48th Italeri attempts at this are ghastly)  but it's not right.

It maybe OK for the other type of bullet spinner, but this is a rarer fitting, which we have not got decent identified images for.  

OK, I pulled out my Trop IIc,  annoyingly I find I have not xeroxed up the bit of the Bentley plans with the bullet Rotol,  but looking at the Trumpy spinner, it's the right length, but the base plate is too wide, and the tip too blunt,  as can be seen in the pics above.  

 

The missing carb intake is a sod, as it's not a simple shape.   And, AFAIK, the one in the IIc kit is the same as the Mk.I kit,  so too narrow.

 

this is a decent shot of the camera gun 

5243ab13e9e69f5f063598655410d74d.jpg

 

easy enough to remove I presume.

 

@Alan F  Glad you went through all 61 pages,  there is a lot discussed there that is not in 'the books'   if anything, if the thread has different info to the books, the thread is correct, especially if there is documentary evidence.

 

Don't know about the extra camera, @StevSmar  may have something.

 

HTH

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Once again , many thanks Troy . Shame about the plans - another £12 wasted ! Pity as now i haven't got anything to go by for the carb intake , radiator housing ( and Rad ) or the spinner . I can see what you mean about the spinner . the photo of Z3068 , it clearly looks narrower at the base so you can clearly see the oil ring .

Are there any good plans out there ? or any measurements which are known and correct on the kit so i can work out other measurements from that ? Somehow i think it may be some time before i can make a start this kit ......

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Thanks for that Graham , i've looked at his website but he only lists the Hurricane MkI , so as far as the radiator housing , carb inlet and spinner go . it wouldn't be any help to me . It would be nice to see how accurate the rest of the kit is , but i don't think it justifies the price when it doesn't show the IIc .

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40 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

A.L. Bentley's plans are available from the man himself.  They were originally printed in Scale Models magazine, but available reprints suffered from stretching during reproduction, so he decided to do it himself.  There are none better.

theoretically, I contacted him twice and got no response. I should try again.

The plans I think also only cover the Mk.I,  though a member here said Bentley had done the basics of the Mk.II/IV as well.   

 

The plans also got republished to 1/48th in 2005,  I checked these against some that I had copied up from the 1/72nd Scale Models, and they matched up.

1 hour ago, Alan F said:

Shame about the plans - another £12 wasted !

Maybe, maybe not.   I have not seen them, I just explaining the problems that have occurred with plans, and kits as a result.  They maybe OK.  Put it this way, the Trumpeter kit is really good on main shapes, if the plans match the kit, they are OK... in as much as anything like this is 'OK' 

 

 

1 hour ago, Alan F said:

Pity as now i haven't got anything to go by for the carb intake , radiator housing ( and Rad ) or the spinner

there are drawings posted,

Hurricane_dimensions.jpg&key=ceff2da9bc9

from Peter Cooke's Hurricane Veracity article,  which show the basic spinner outline (as do the Bentley Mk.I as this was used on later Mk.I's see props and spinners thread)  and the deeper radiator.  It's not much deeper, as can be seen.

 

They don't show the wider carb though. 

 

For the rad, I'd use the side view of the plans I mentioned,  deepen the rear section, and then cut the front section in the middle, and add plastic strip to make up the depth, as the top and bottom lip curves look very similar..  Refer to the big clear pic of the rad I posted above.

 

The carb intake, hmm, a widening exercise on the one from the Airfix kit maybe a possibility.    More study on this required.

 

1 hour ago, Alan F said:

 

. I can see what you mean about the spinner . the photo of Z3068 , it clearly looks narrower at the base so you can clearly see the oil ring .

Are there any good plans out there ? or any measurements which are known and correct on the kit so i can work out other measurements from that ? Somehow i think it may be some time before i can make a start this kit ......

AFAIK, and having copied up the 2005 plans to 1/24th, the kit matches those very well in shape.  

 

I see you just posted, I hope the above makes sense,  I appreciate this is a bit of a steep learning curve,  Hurricanes are mostly very simple, the main bits stay the same on all marks,  the tricky bits are the bits Trumpeter have not understood!   The most complex part are the props and spinners,. and there are details on this I'm not happy about myself. 

Anyway,  as always, these threads are useful for me, as if you can't explain it clearly, then you perhaps don't know enough yourself...

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Funny , i was just looking at the plans i have , the radiator housing in particular , i notice that in plan view ( underside ) it's exactly the same as the MkI - also shown in these plans . The side elevation looks right when compared to photo's and also the front looks right . I have placed various parts of the kit on the plans and they all seem to match exactly ( ignoring the radiator housing and spinner ) the only difference i can see is that the kit is slightly narrower ( in height ) where the fuselage meets the tail fin . So maybe not a total waste of money after all , if your Bentley plans also match the kit . then i can use these plans for the modifications / scratch building required . Once again many thanks Troy .

 

 

Just posted that , then went trolling through photo's to get an idea of the shape of the spinner . Looking through the BBMF mag , page 86 there's a photo of what is supposed to be PZ865 - with a 4 blade prop - what's that about ? not related to what i'm doing , but i thought it very odd , answers on a postcard please ......

Edited by Alan F
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55 minutes ago, Alan F said:

page 86 there's a photo of what is supposed to be PZ865 - with a 4 blade prop - what's that about ? not related to what i'm doing , but i thought it very odd , answers on a postcard please ......

4 blade prop that fitted (common spline on the Merlin)  was all that was available at the time I suspect, it works and you get a  flying Hurricane :) 

 

A 4 blade prop was tried out on the Mk.V prototype.  

hurr4-7.jpg&key=b956bb01f874daf73e644201

this is in the props and spinners thread BTW ;) 

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There are some views of the Mk.II in the Scale Models Bentley plans - I would assume that they are in the plan set too but I don't have it to confirm.

 

The radiators of the two marks may look the same in plan view but the Mk.II is deeper.  The difference is visible from the front because the Mk.I intake is a pure ellipse whereas the Mk.II has sides with a much shallower curve, and hence a deeper intake.

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22 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

There are some views of the Mk.II in the Scale Models Bentley plans

As in the 4 sheets originally published in 1980?   No, they just cover the Mk.I

They do illustrate the C cannon wing, for the Sea Hurricane IC though, which may give the idea that some II features are there.  (given the lack of the Sea Hurricane IC, that this really is a Mk.II feature)

Someone,  Pete Mossong?  Says he got new plans from Bentley, with additional sheets /or details of Mk.II and IV parts though.  They post a lo-res scan as well. 

 I'll have to search this up.

EDIT - here 

@Alan F  here you go

 

QntSBll.jpg

mXtrH5n.jpg

 

 

 

22 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

The radiators of the two marks may look the same in plan view but the Mk.II is deeper.  The difference is visible from the front because the Mk.I intake is a pure ellipse whereas the Mk.II has sides with a much shallower curve, and hence a deeper intake.

I did try to explain this above in post #15,  more about a possible way to convert the rad though.

HTH

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With all these newfangled resin 3D printers cropping up everywhere, I guess it could be a question of time until someone comes up with a .stl for the correct spinner and/or carb intake.
I believe @TheBaron has one, maybe more people interested.

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2 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

With all these newfangled resin 3D printers cropping up everywhere, I guess it could be a question of time until someone comes up with a .stl for the correct spinner and/or carb intake.
I believe @TheBaron has one, maybe more people interested.

Possibly, though with a lathe a spinner is easy enough to turn, probably as easy to just do resin correction bits.  Yes, I have pondered on it... Another item that would really help the Trumpeter kit would be a set of positive rivets, as in 1/24th they are noticeable, and the holes just don't look right.

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