Gabriele Profeta Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 (edited) Hi fellow Britmodeller members, I am an amateur 3D modeller and a new member of your community. Due to my interest for WWII-related topics, in the past I have often dug this forum looking for information on British WWII weapons, but this is my first post here. As the title says, I am looking for information relative to the Flame Float Mk II, an ammo piece that was commonly used aboard CC patrol aircraft (and probably on FAA scout planes) to help locating and marking targets at night. Unfortunately I couldn't find any picture of the real thing, and all the information I currently have is from OP1665 (http://michaelhiske.de/Allierte/USA/OrdnancePamphlets/OP1665/Part01/Chapter20/Figure091.htm) and other unclassified documents now available online. My unanswered questions are two: In the 'colour and markings' section of the said documents is written: "Body, strut supports, strut, and protecting cap painted red; tail cone painted yellow". Nothing is said about the cylindrical inner container that gets released on water impact together with the tail cone , nor about the nose, though I suspect that they might have left them unpainted. All the ordnance pamphlets that I have consulted have b/w drawings with markings painted on them, but being in most cases digitalized photocopies, their quality is too poor for making those markings intelligible. Has anyone here better informations than I do on the above topics? By the way, this is a quick preview of what my model looks so far. I hope it is okay posting it here: Edited December 14, 2019 by Gabriele Profeta 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 I'll put an @Selwyn here, as this is the sort of information he knows about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Profeta Posted December 14, 2019 Author Share Posted December 14, 2019 21 minutes ago, Troy Smith said: I'll put an @Selwyn here, as this is the sort of information he knows about. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fubar57 Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 http://bulletpicker.com/pdf/USNBD - British Bombs and Fuzes (Nov 1944).pdf 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Profeta Posted December 14, 2019 Author Share Posted December 14, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, fubar57 said: http://bulletpicker.com/pdf/USNBD - British Bombs and Fuzes (Nov 1944).pdf Thank you for your reply fubar57! The document you have linked is among the ones already in my archive. Somehow it got clearer illustrations than other similar pamphlets but, other than a few letters and digits, I still can't make head or tails of the markings it portrays: I would be grateful if someone more knowledgeable than me would be so kind to decipher them. Edited December 14, 2019 by Gabriele Profeta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 3 hours ago, Gabriele Profeta said: Hi fellow Britmodeller members, I am an amateur 3D modeller and a new member of your community. Due to my interest for WWII-related topics, in the past I have often dug this forum looking for information on British WWII weapons, but this is my first post here. As the title says, I am looking for information relative to the Flame Float Mk II, an ammo piece that was commonly used aboard CC patrol aircraft (and probably on FAA scout planes) to help locating and marking targets at night. Unfortunately I couldn't find any picture of the real thing, and all the information I currently have is from OP1665 (http://michaelhiske.de/Allierte/USA/OrdnancePamphlets/OP1665/Part01/Chapter20/Figure091.htm) and other unclassified documents now available online. My unanswered questions are two: In the 'colour and markings' section of the said documents is written: "Body, strut supports, strut, and protecting cap painted red; tail cone painted yellow". Nothing is said about the cylindrical inner container that gets released on water impact together with the tail cone , nor about the nose, though I suspect that they might have left them unpainted. All the ordnance pamphlets that I have consulted have b/w drawings with markings painted on them, but being in most cases digitalized photocopies, their quality is too poor for making those markings intelligible. Has anyone here better informations than I do on the above topics? By the way, this is a quick preview of what my model looks so far. I hope it is okay posting it here: 1.Your colour scheme is correct for the flame float. 2. You wont find any colours related to the cylindrical inner container that gets released on water impact, the colours shown are for warning the user when handling the store, the inner will probably be unpainted metal, as when the store functions you wont see it as its floating under the sea surface anyway. The stencilled identification Markings Will be the Item name- "Navigation Flame Float Mk II, " the Date of Manufacture, Lot Number, and Section and reference number..and fill details. If you look at the stencilled on markings on any bomb of the period will give you the format , as this was standardised throughout the three services. What the Section and reference number was I don't know. The diagram shown above shows the handling warning labels in boxes to the right of the central diagram. Selwyn 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 This: http://bulletpicker.com/pdf/OP 1665, British Explosive Ordnance.pdf Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Profeta Posted December 14, 2019 Author Share Posted December 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Selwyn said: 1.Your colour scheme is correct for the flame float. 2. You wont find any colours related to the cylindrical inner container that gets released on water impact, the colours shown are for warning the user when handling the store, the inner will probably be unpainted metal, as when the store functions you wont see it as its floating under the sea surface anyway. The stencilled identification Markings Will be the Item name- "Navigation Flame Float Mk II, " the Date of Manufacture, Lot Number, and Section and reference number..and fill details. If you look at the stencilled on markings on any bomb of the period will give you the format , as this was standardised throughout the three services. What the Section and reference number was I don't know. The diagram shown above shows the handling warning labels in boxes to the right of the central diagram. Selwyn Thank you for your answers Selwyn, your remarks make perfect sense to me. Can you confirm that the nose would have been painted in red as well as the body? I ask because that part was normally covered by the protecting cap (not portrayed in my model) and likely uncovered just before dropping the flame float itself. What do you think that my decision to keep the punch sleeve (on the top of the tail cone) unpainted? Talking about markings, have you noticed that arrow pointing to the side opening (to the side of the tail cone in one) on one the above drawings? It had to connect the opening with an handling warning, but in the drawing the lettering is not visible. 45 minutes ago, dogsbody said: This: http://bulletpicker.com/pdf/OP 1665, British Explosive Ordnance.pdf Chris That pamphlet is on my HD and it has already been mentioned in this thread, but thank you anyway Chris! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Gabriele Profeta said: Thank you for your answers Selwyn, your remarks make perfect sense to me. Can you confirm that the nose would have been painted in red as well as the body? I ask because that part was normally covered by the protecting cap (not portrayed in my model) and likely uncovered just before dropping the flame float itself. What do you think that my decision to keep the punch sleeve (on the top of the tail cone) unpainted? Talking about markings, have you noticed that arrow pointing to the side opening (to the side of the tail cone in one) on one the above drawings? It had to connect the opening with an handling warning, but in the drawing the lettering is not visible. That pamphlet is on my HD and it has already been mentioned in this thread, but thank you anyway Chris! The nose would have been red the protective cap would have been removed either immediately after loading or just before flight. its a handling safety device not an in air safety device.. Selwyn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Profeta Posted December 14, 2019 Author Share Posted December 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, Selwyn said: The nose would have been red the protective cap would have been removed either immediately after loading or just before flight. its a handling safety device not an in air safety device.. Selwyn Okay, so those floats were loaded on racks as regular bombs? Call me silly, but having not seen any suspension lug, I was under the impression that they were dropped manually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Gabriele Profeta said: That pamphlet is on my HD and it has already been mentioned in this thread, but thank you anyway Chris! As it is just a long string of code letters and numbers and not highlighted in any way, I didn't notice it in your original posting. My bad, I guess. Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Profeta Posted December 14, 2019 Author Share Posted December 14, 2019 1 minute ago, dogsbody said: As it is just a long string of code letters and numbers and not highlighted in any way, I didn't notice it in your original posting. My bad, I guess. Chris No harm done, thank you again for your cooperation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 @Selwyn is (as he has already shown) the guru on this stuff, but if this is the type of float I think it is, then they were dropped manually (e.g. through the chute built into the TAG cockpit of a Barracuda) but also sometimes suspended from Light Series Bomb Carriers under the wings of just about anything that flew over water. They were extremely important for oversea navigation; looking at my Dad’s logbook, a good 50% of the navigation phase of his FAA Observer training was spent on the various methods of wind finding - of which dropping a smoke float by day / flame float at night was by far the most common. Even in my era with infinitely better radar, inertial nav & accurate Doppler, knowing the wind as accurately as possible when out of sight of land and ‘Mother’ was drummed into us. Otherwise you risked not finding the ship and/or running out of fuel when you returned from your 3-4 hours away 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 5 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said: @Selwyn is (as he has already shown) the guru on this stuff, but if this is the type of float I think it is, then they were dropped manually (e.g. through the chute built into the TAG cockpit of a Barracuda) but also sometimes suspended from Light Series Bomb Carriers under the wings of just about anything that flew over water. They were extremely important for oversea navigation; looking at my Dad’s logbook, a good 50% of the navigation phase of his FAA Observer training was spent on the various methods of wind finding - of which dropping a smoke float by day / flame float at night was by far the most common. Even in my era with infinitely better radar, inertial nav & accurate Doppler, knowing the wind as accurately as possible when out of sight of land and ‘Mother’ was drummed into us. Otherwise you risked not finding the ship and/or running out of fuel when you returned from your 3-4 hours away FAAWAFU The Flame Float Mk II weighed just under 12 lb and burned for 6 minutes, at 2 foot long and 5.9" dia I think a little too big for in the cockpit, so was probably deployed from a light series carrier. However the No 3 Mk 1 Flame Float that weighed 2.5 lb burned for 5 mins, and at 18.5" long ,2.9" dia was much more suitable to be cockpit deployed from a chute., so this is probably what your Dad commonly used. Another clue is that it has a tear off seal that has to be removed before dropping. Selwyn 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Profeta Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 7 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said: @Selwyn is (as he has already shown) the guru on this stuff, but if this is the type of float I think it is, then they were dropped manually (e.g. through the chute built into the TAG cockpit of a Barracuda) but also sometimes suspended from Light Series Bomb Carriers under the wings of just about anything that flew over water. They were extremely important for oversea navigation; looking at my Dad’s logbook, a good 50% of the navigation phase of his FAA Observer training was spent on the various methods of wind finding - of which dropping a smoke float by day / flame float at night was by far the most common. Even in my era with infinitely better radar, inertial nav & accurate Doppler, knowing the wind as accurately as possible when out of sight of land and ‘Mother’ was drummed into us. Otherwise you risked not finding the ship and/or running out of fuel when you returned from your 3-4 hours away Yes as far as I could understand from the few sources I found online, flame floats were used in numbers both by FAA and CC, so I am a bit surprised that there is so little information and pictorial documentation about them. The following confidential information on Leigh Lights, documents flame float's usage against German U-boats on RAF patrol craft : I have also found three Wikipedia articles mentioning flame floats: "[Aboard Short S.26 flying boats] there was internal stowage for 20 reconnaissance flares, 28 flame floats and 8 smoke floats. Air to Surface Vessel (ASV) radar was fitted, plus armour plating for the internal fuel tanks and the crew stations". (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_S.26#Design_and_development) "[Westland Wasp] Armament Naval: 2 x Mk 44 or 1 x Mk 46 torpedo or 2 x Mk 44 depth charges or WE.177 600lb Nuclear Depth Bomb.[28][29][30] Attack: 4 x SS.11 replaced by 2 x AS.12 missiles. General: GPMG, 4.5 Flares, Smoke/flame floats". (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Wasp#Specifications_(Wasp_HAS.1)) "Behind [Short Stirling's] rest area, the uninterrupted deck ran across the full length of the bomb cells to the location in which the retractable ventral turret was installed upon early production aircraft; the internal area aft of this position were used to store flame floats and reconnaissance flares, as well as an escape hatch, lavatory, rear turret position, and the crew entry door on the port side." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Stirling#Crew_accommodation) So, apparently, on 1 hour ago, Selwyn said: FAAWAFU The Flame Float Mk II weighed just under 12 lb and burned for 6 minutes, at 2 foot long and 5.9" dia I think a little too big for in the cockpit... Selwyn Yes, indeed you are right; right after posting my question I thought the same! Anyway, since the last time we talked, I updated a bit my model. Changes include a remodelled nose, better paint work and, addition of markings on the main body. The model should represent a Flame Float Mk II ready for dropping. What do you guys think about it? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 (edited) Not just the Wasp, Gabriele; all RN helicopters (I flew Lynx and Sea King) routinely carried smoke & flame floats, used to visually mark a datum [where you’ve just dropped a weapon on a submarine]. In an exercise you’d drop a SFF and a “cracker” (underwater sound signal; it just made a harmless bang which was audible in the submarine) to mark a practice attack; when the boat heard the cracker she’d launch a “candle” (a coloured floating marker flare) to mark her position - that way you could measure how accurate your attack was and whether it would have worked in real life. These red beasts were for more serious things in wartime, but the principle is the same. Edited December 16, 2019 by Ex-FAAWAFU 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Profeta Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said: Not just the Wasp, Gabriele; all RN helicopters (I flew Lynx and Sea King) routinely carried smoke & flame floats, used to visually mark a datum [where you’ve just dropped a weapon on a submarine]. In an exercise you’d drop a SFF and a “cracker” (underwater sound signal; it just made a harmless bang which was audible in the submarine) to mark a practice attack; when the boat heard the cracker she’d launch a “candle” (a coloured floating marker flare) to mark her position - that eay you could measure how accurate your attack was and whether it would have worked in real life. These red beasts were for more serious things in wartime, but the principle is the same. Interesting topic! If I get you correctly, flame float's main use was marking a position. Could they be used as well for illuminating an area at night (in WWII's early ASV radar era), or should I conclude that for that task flares were preferred? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 10 minutes ago, Gabriele Profeta said: Interesting topic! If I get you correctly, flame float's main use was marking a position. Could they be used as well for illuminating an area at night (in WWII's early ASV radar era), or should I conclude that for that task flares were preferred? It would not be any use for illumination. For WW2 ASV attacks you would use a Leigh light mounted on the aircraft to illuminate the target. on smaller aircraft I would assume a parachute flare may have been used. Selwyn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Profeta Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, Selwyn said: It would not be any use for illumination. For WW2 ASV attacks you would use a Leigh light mounted on the aircraft to illuminate the target. on smaller aircraft I would assume a parachute flare may have been used. Selwyn Good to know, thanks. Do you have any remark on the (speculative) marking I adopted for my model? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 These floats would have been used (as the name suggests) for navigation; it was critical to know what the wind was doing , often many miles from land - if you got that wrong you could miss your carrier, make landfall in the wrong place, run out of fuel or all 3. By day it would emit smoke, by night a flame, and the aircraft would then use it as a fixed mark, flying a standard pattern around it which would allow the Observer (Navy) / Navigator (RAF) to work out the wind. As Selwyn says, you wouldn’t use a small flare like this to illuminate an ASV target; not powerful enough and no parachute (so it would fall too fast - you want the light source to descend slowly, as for instance at Taranto where some of the aircraft were flare droppers to illuminate the anchorage so the dive bombers and torpedo bombers could attack). Leigh Lights were the illuminator of choice for ASV attacks on U-boats. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Profeta Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said: These floats would have been used (as the name suggests) for navigation; it was critical to know what the wind was doing , often many miles from land - if you got that wrong you could miss your carrier, make landfall in the wrong place, run out of fuel or all 3. By day it would emit smoke, by night a flame, and the aircraft would then use it as a fixed mark, flying a standard pattern around it which would allow the Observer (Navy) / Navigator (RAF) to work out the wind. As Selwyn says, you wouldn’t use a small flare like this to illuminate an ASV target; not powerful enough and no parachute (so it would fall too fast - you want the light source to descend slowly, as for instance at Taranto where some of the aircraft were flare droppers to illuminate the anchorage so the dive bombers and torpedo bombers could attack). Leigh Lights were the illuminator of choice for ASV attacks on U-boats. Thank you very much FAAWAFU, here are a couple of quotes confirming the precious information that you and Selwyn have provided: "One early problem with ASV Mk.II was that its minimal range was too long. To make a successful attack, the crew had to see the submarine. At night, this could be achieved by dropping flares, but this warned the Germans that an attack was imminent". https://uboat.net/allies/technical/leigh_light.htm "Early air-to-surface radar sets, namely the SV Mk. II, had an inconveniently long minimum detection range. Thus as the aircraft approached the target, it would disappear off the radar at a range that was too great to allow it to be seen by eye at night without some form of illumination. At first, aircraft solved this problem by dropping flares to light up the area, but since the flare only lit up the area directly under the aircraft, a string (a number of flares in succession) would have to be dropped until the submarine was spotted. Once it was spotted the aircraft would have to circle back to attack, the entire process giving the submarine a fair amount of time to dive out of danger". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Light#Development On a side note, I think I have found the type of flare they used in the ASW role: http://michaelhiske.de/Allierte/USA/OrdnancePamphlets/OP1665/Part01/Chapter19/Figure083.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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