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Julien

FV432 with M2

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Never seen one with a Browning M2 before?

 

79189687_10157904165915842_1139097976271

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With the Racal PU8 mast on the back and a pineapple EVHF bag hanging from the front along with a 9x9 tent pole bag I think this is a Royal Signals 7th Armd Bde Rebro det, the 24 C/S also gives that away on the side. I know that our 1 UK Armd Div main complex during Op Granby mysteriously acquired 0.50 cal Brownings for all the 436’s instead of the GPMGs, not sure where they came from but I was told the Staff officers felt better with the .50’s guarding the Divisional HQ.

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8 minutes ago, Dads203 said:

With the Racal PU8 mast on the back and a pineapple EVHF bag hanging from the front along with a 9x9 tent pole bag I think this is a Royal Signals 7th Armd Bde Rebro det, the 24 CS also gives that away on the side. I know that our 1 UK Armd Div main complex during Op Granby mysteriously acquired 0.50 cal Brownings for all the 436’s instead of the GPMGs, not sure where they came from but I was told the Staff officers felt better with the .50’s guarding the Divisional HQ.

You want to post that info on the Tank Museum FB page where this photo was as they did not have any info on it at all.

 

BM Wins again!

 

Thx for the info

 

Julien

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I have a few pictures of .50 browning armed 432’s and 436’s in my photo collection ,but  I didn’t take them and they are not my photo’s to share hence not posting them up . After all these years it would be hard finding the guys to get permission to do so, but I do know of a few that are out in the public domain though if you look for them. 
 

Regards

 

Dan 
 

 

 

 

 

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Judging by the flash hider that weapon came from US or other Coalition stocks. Saudi perhaps?  UK has never used that type. And we would not have had that many spare in stock.

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4 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

Judging by the flash hider that weapon came from US or other Coalition stocks. Saudi perhaps?  UK has never used that type. And we would not have had that many spare in stock.


I think they were ‘acquired’ from the US Army And were given back at the end of the war, we never saw them again or even the mounts once all the kit was back in piece time locations. I did find some .50 belts under the floor boards of a 432 along with a few Russian pistols and an AK bayonet :huh:

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I know that we had no US-sourced M2s in service in 2008 when I joined the Light Weapons team, but that is of course some time later.

 

We couldn't have kept them even if we wanted to as they were incompatible with the Manroy-maufactured M2s used by UK forces.  The parts are not guaranteed safely interchangeable and that configuration / build standard had technically not been cleared for UK service use.  You would be surprised what problems even a fractional variation in a part dimension can cause.  And we don't accept US batch proofing of weapons and barrels.  For reasons I don't recall we disliked the Stellite-lined barrels favoured by the US.

 

There would have been an interesting situation had there been a burst un-proofed barrel or the fitting of a Manroy spare part resulting in a breech explosion, either possibly resulting in injury or death.  And courts martial.........

 

For comparison, when we started purchasing H&K manufactured GPMGs there were extensive firing trials with RO and H&K guns involving random parts swapping to prove safe compatibility and interchangeability of RO and H&K parts and weapons.  All our GPMGs and spares at that time were either RO or Manroy manufactured.

 

On an operational note, the advantage of having something heavier than 7.62mm to protect HQs etc is obvious.  During WW2, Brigade and higher formation HQs usually had at least an armoured car troop and perhaps a couple of tanks and LAA as part of their organic defence.

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13 minutes ago, Das Abteilung said:

I know that we had no US-sourced M2s in service in 2008 when I joined the Light Weapons team, but that is of course some time later.

 

We couldn't have kept them even if we wanted to as they were incompatible with the Manroy-maufactured M2s used by UK forces.  The parts are not guaranteed safely interchangeable and that configuration / build standard had technically not been cleared for UK service use.  You would be surprised what problems even a fractional variation in a part dimension can cause.  And we don't accept US batch proofing of weapons and barrels.  For reasons I don't recall we disliked the Stellite-lined barrels favoured by the US.

 

There would have been an interesting situation had there been a burst un-proofed barrel or the fitting of a Manroy spare part resulting in a breech explosion, either possibly resulting in injury or death.  And courts martial.........

 

For comparison, when we started purchasing H&K manufactured GPMGs there were extensive firing trials with RO and H&K guns involving random parts swapping to prove safe compatibility and interchangeability of RO and H&K parts and weapons.  All our GPMGs and spares at that time were either RO or Manroy manufactured.

 

On an operational note, the advantage of having something heavier than 7.62mm to protect HQs etc is obvious.  During WW2, Brigade and higher formation HQs usually had at least an armoured car troop and perhaps a couple of tanks and LAA as part of their organic defence.

 

We had a platoon of infantry as a defence team at Div HQ level if our footing went into a full on war time roll, Only ever been on exercise once with them though in my 12 years of service, interesting 

bunch of lads the Kings Own :frantic: Lots of jokes about coming on shift to find our 43's up on blocks and no sign of the defence teams !!

 

At brigade level we had the Pioneer defence section who were attached to the squadron to provide the HQ with defence,, again a very interesting bunch of lads who really were hard as nails, glad they were on our side TBH, they brought with them a few Ferret armoured cars

but that was about it, The Brigadier drove around in a Warrior command vehicle, C/S 0 so we did have the chain gun and Rarden cannon I suppose but none of that helps if the bad guys call in a fire mission or airstrike.

 

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I'm pretty sure I've seen photos of that M2/mount combo on RA M109s during Op Granby - it would suggest that wherever they came from it was more than just a unit-level aquisition (always thought the mount looked similar to the type found on Japanese Type 74 MBTs).

 

I know the 109s could be fitted with M2s but it was the specific type of mount that caught my eye, rather than the gun itself.

 

John

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There's another pic of an FV432 with .50 cal, and also pics of the M109's in the Concord Operation Granby book screenshots below:

 

49231961248_7f4a821f71_c.jpgGranby FV432 by antdphillips, on Flickr

49231932588_00d83f0de8_c.jpgGranby M109 by antdphillips, on Flickr

49231932643_a4fe837eb5_c.jpgGranby M109 2 by antdphillips, on Flickr

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It’s not a signals 432 but belongs to the REME attached to the tankies, once the upgraded armour was issued to the challengers it got fitted with the old bazooka plates along the side, I have quite a few pictures somewhere on my PC of it and actually talked to the commander of one of the FB BAOR sites about it.

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20 minutes ago, Old pro said:

It’s not a signals 432 but belongs to the REME attached to the tankies, once the upgraded armour was issued to the challengers it got fitted with the old bazooka plates along the side, I have quite a few pictures somewhere on my PC of it and actually talked to the commander of one of the FB BAOR sites about it.


Interesting, 

 

Those boxes on the sides are 432 rear bins just welded to the hull and not some side armour, there is also a cut down chieftain side bin attached so no extra armour.
 

A few things also fitted to the 43 that makes me doubt that it’s a REME wagon is the 1500 watt gene cable hanging out at the back,  half a cage on the roof welded upside down ( Standard 432 RRB practice) with a bunk in side. 
 

Not saying that I’m right but I did crew almost all of the 43 variants in the signals over a 12 year period so I am quite familiar with the small details and most of the official / unofficial field modifications. 


 

Regards

 

Dan 

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Just looking over the photo again and noticed that there is a 432 pack lifting frame on the front deck buried under the webbing and other assorted kit so Old Pro could be right. Very unusual for a 432 to carry a pack frame unless it’s a spare, the 434 normally carries this bit of kit. I take back what I said. It’s entirely possible that this is a FRG 432 (Forward Recovery Group).
 

Giving the REME radios and masts is more shocking though ;)

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13 hours ago, Dads203 said:

Just looking over the photo again and noticed that there is a 432 pack lifting frame on the front deck buried under the webbing and other assorted kit so Old Pro could be right. Very unusual for a 432 to carry a pack frame unless it’s a spare, the 434 normally carries this bit of kit. I take back what I said. It’s entirely possible that this is a FRG 432 (Forward Recovery Group).
 

Giving the REME radios and masts is more shocking though ;)

Even more worrying is they actually had guns! 😉

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19 hours ago, Dads203 said:


Interesting, 

 

Those boxes on the sides are 432 rear bins just welded to the hull and not some side armour, there is also a cut down chieftain side bin attached so no extra armour.
 

A few things also fitted to the 43 that makes me doubt that it’s a REME wagon is the 1500 watt gene cable hanging out at the back,  half a cage on the roof welded upside down ( Standard 432 RRB practice) with a bunk in side. 
 

Not saying that I’m right but I did crew almost all of the 43 variants in the signals over a 12 year period so I am quite familiar with the small details and most of the official / unofficial field modifications. 


 

Regards

 

Dan 

Me too,  that said all signal 436s at the time would have been fitted with ptarmigan connection boxes, certainly all 1 Div HQ vehicles and brigade HQ vehicles were even the rebros, as well as penthouse frames (although not all were fitted with the penthouse the mounting would still be there) the bin’s are not the armour i mentioned this was added at a later date and consisted of Challenger bazooka plates not used after the challengers were uparmoured, as far as I can remember it belonged to the REME QM hence all the extra kit, I will dig out my other photos besides 24 is not a signals c/s

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The 432 rebro was a standard 432, no Ptarmigan boxes were added or the penthouse kit as these wagons would not of been part of the main or forward HQ’s so didn’t require the mods, the Rebro held 4 VHF secure radio sets And was used to double the range of a radio net, 4 sets enabled you to hold two working secure radios, they were used at brigade and division levels and were classed as high value asset.  There was nothing that gave away a signals RRB 432 from a standard 432;) 

 

Our 432 RRBs had 4 mast brackets fitted to the hull to make it easier for the crews to get the elevated kit up, most crews kept the masts in the back as to not stick out whilst travelling around.


The signals command version of the the 432 is know as the 436, that’s the variant with the penthouse kit, SRBB, CRBB and armoured back bin of which you mentioned. It also had major changes in the interior and loads of specialist kit fitted depending on its roll/use, the Arty wagons had BATEs fitted in as well as the usual 436 mods.

 

The C/S 24 is a signals C/S on the comms command net (signals only and used for signals engineering ). C/S 24 might be the REME QM on the log net which I suspect might of been the net that they used. The break down of call signs is complicated on different nets if you are holding more that one in your vehicle , you might be C/S 32 on the Div Command net but you might be call sign C/S 12 on the brigade command net, these call signs can also be different depending on who is operating the radio so personality’s also change the radio call signs .  

 

Callsign Sunray and sunray minor are the easiest examples of that. It’s meant to be complicated as not to give anything away to the enemy.

 

Also the C/S prefix changed on a daily basis, so C/S 24 is only part of the actual call sign, the prefix is worked out from the BATCO sheet and could be anything from Alpha through to Zulu. All good fun init! 

 

 

 

 

Regards

 

Dan 

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5 hours ago, Dads203 said:

The 432 rebro was a standard 432, no Ptarmigan boxes were added or the penthouse kit as these wagons would not of been part of the main or forward HQ’s so didn’t require the mods, the Rebro held 4 VHF secure radio sets And was used to double the range of a radio net, 4 sets enabled you to hold two working secure radios, they were used at brigade and division levels and were classed as high value asset.  There was nothing that gave away a signals RRB 432 from a standard 432;) 

 

Our 432 RRBs had 4 mast brackets fitted to the hull to make it easier for the crews to get the elevated kit up, most crews kept the masts in the back as to not stick out whilst travelling around.


The signals command version of the the 432 is know as the 436, that’s the variant with the penthouse kit, SRBB, CRBB and armoured back bin of which you mentioned. It also had major changes in the interior and loads of specialist kit fitted depending on its roll/use, the Arty wagons had BATEs fitted in as well as the usual 436 mods.

 

The C/S 24 is a signals C/S on the comms command net (signals only and used for signals engineering ). C/S 24 might be the REME QM on the log net which I suspect might of been the net that they used. The break down of call signs is complicated on different nets if you are holding more that one in your vehicle , you might be C/S 32 on the Div Command net but you might be call sign C/S 12 on the brigade command net, these call signs can also be different depending on who is operating the radio so personality’s also change the radio call signs .  

 

Callsign Sunray and sunray minor are the easiest examples of that. It’s meant to be complicated as not to give anything away to the enemy.

 

Also the C/S prefix changed on a daily basis, so C/S 24 is only part of the actual call sign, the prefix is worked out from the BATCO sheet and could be anything from Alpha through to Zulu. All good fun init! 

 

 

 

 

Regards

 

Dan 

Having served 15 years in the signals all the rebros I served on during the gulf war period both at Div and Bgd level were fitted for ptarmigan, although we only had two masts externally fitted front and rear right hand side, gennys were also mounted on the front, of course I didn’t serve with all Brigade’s so some variation could have existed. Also served at an Arty RLD we didn’t have bates, it was reserved for the gun Btys.

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4 hours ago, Old pro said:

Having served 15 years in the signals all the rebros I served on during the gulf war period both at Div and Bgd level were fitted for ptarmigan, although we only had two masts externally fitted front and rear right hand side, gennys were also mounted on the front, of course I didn’t serve with all Brigade’s so some variation could have existed. Also served at an Arty RLD we didn’t have bates, it was reserved for the gun Btys.


We must of served roughly at the same time then, my first posting was 6th Armd Bde, 206 sig Sqn, followed by 3 UK Armd Div, then 1 UK Armd Div with my final unit 14 Sig Regt EW.

 

I started my own 436 conversion  a while ago, now stalled 

 

 

 

Regards

 

Dan 

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20 hours ago, Dads203 said:


We must of served roughly at the same time then, my first posting was 6th Armd Bde, 206 sig Sqn, followed by 3 UK Armd Div, then 1 UK Armd Div with my final unit 14 Sig Regt EW.

 

I started my own 436 conversion  a while ago, now stalled 

 

 

 

Regards

 

Dan 

Probably not if you joined in 90, that was my wind down period doing the cushy job of Brigade recce! No more radio stags. I went 4 Div, RLD, 21 sigs, 1 Div then 212 in Osnabrück and now i feel old😩

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1 hour ago, Old pro said:

Probably not if you joined in 90, that was my wind down period doing the cushy job of Brigade recce! No more radio stags. I went 4 Div, RLD, 21 sigs, 1 Div then 212 in Osnabrück and now i feel old😩

Sorry bud ;)

 

I joined 212 when they moved to Herford as part of 1 UK Div, one of the best jobs I had as CRA’s driver, until they found out I had my track licence and I had to move to diamond one and take over G3 Ops.

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