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BP Defiant L7009 H-TW from 141 Squadron question


Basilisk

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8 hours ago, Basilisk said:

But does a picture exist of this aircraft? I had no luck in locating an image.

The chap who is most likely to know is @AndyL  who was or is writing a book on Defiants.   Drop him a PM if he doesn't see this. 

 

HTH

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15 hours ago, 85sqn said:

I made that aircraft once. I have never seen a photo but found somewhere saying it might have been speculative or from anecdotal evidence.

I saw your build which turned out very nice.

 

14 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

The chap who is most likely to know is @AndyL  who was or is writing a book on Defiants.   Drop him a PM if he doesn't see this. 

 

HTH

I will do that Troy. But it looks that there is no picture of this aircraft. Just wonder how the special marking was referenced from.

 

Are there any other Defiants in camouflage scheme with some interesting markings of which a picture exists?

Cheers, Peter

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In response to whether there are any photos of L7009, the answer is yes, but they are held in a private collection and the owner will not share the images.  As to the profile, the spinners on 141 Squadron Defiants were black, not Sky - I've got several Battle of Britain images of their Defiants, and all are black.  Between my 141 and 264 Squadron Defiant photos there's nothing outstanding in relation to them being adorned with artwork, though there was the fanciful suggestion that other 141 aircraft were called ' Cock Sure',  'Cocked for Firing' and a couple more that memory eludes me at the moment.  However there's no evidence they existed, and the Cock of the North artwork refers to a song of that name, and is homage to Ian Donald's Scottish ancestry.

 

As an aside, L7009 will be the cover image on my Defiant history, from a painting by Steven Heyen, the Australian artist.

 

Regards

 

Andy

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3 minutes ago, AndyL said:

In response to whether there are any photos of L7009, the answer is yes, but they are held in a private collection and the owner will not share the images.

Have you seen them?

And is the profile accurate compared?

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4 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Have you seen them?

And is the profile accurate compared?

No, but they were taken by an ex 141 air gunner who had lent the photos for copying but never had them back. He confirmed L7009 was suitably adorned. 

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2 minutes ago, AndyL said:

No, but they were taken by an ex 141 air gunner who had lent the photos for copying but never had them back.

so they basically been stolen, and the new "owner" then won't let them be seen.   Do you know  who has them and where they are?

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20 minutes ago, AndyL said:

In response to whether there are any photos of L7009, the answer is yes, but they are held in a private collection and the owner will not share the images.  As to the profile, the spinners on 141 Squadron Defiants were black, not Sky - I've got several Battle of Britain images of their Defiants, and all are black.  Between my 141 and 264 Squadron Defiant photos there's nothing outstanding in relation to them being adorned with artwork, though there was the fanciful suggestion that other 141 aircraft were called ' Cock Sure',  'Cocked for Firing' and a couple more that memory eludes me at the moment.  However there's no evidence they existed, and the Cock of the North artwork refers to a song of that name, and is homage to Ian Donald's Scottish ancestry.

 

As an aside, L7009 will be the cover image on my Defiant history, from a painting by Steven Heyen, the Australian artist.

 

Regards

 

Andy

Thanks Andy for your reply. A shame that the owner is not willing to share this image. Is it known if the cock painting on most artworks is the correct size and at the correct location?

 

When will your book be published and who is the publisher? Would love to purchase a copy when published.

Cheers, Peter

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Cock of the North was not just a song, but a well known Gresley locomotive with the LNER, and before that I believe a stagecoach.  It was also a well-known coaching inn on the old A1 just outside of Durham, unfortunately now demolished I fear but certainly "repurposed".

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Cock o' the North was the nickname of Alexander Gordon, 4th Duke of Gordon who raised the 92nd Foot Regiment that became the Gordon Highlanders. It is also the tiltle of a bagpipe tune/military march that the Gordon Highlanders adopted as their regimental march.

 

There is a song that uses the tune but it is not a polite one.

 

Auntie Mary had a canary

Up the leg of her drawers;

It whistled for hours among the flowers

And won the Victoria Cross

Aunty Judy's budgy went broody

August Bank Holiday

It laid her an egg the size of her head

And frightened the cockerells away

 

There are much more obscene versions.

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21 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

so they basically been stolen, and the new "owner" then won't let them be seen.   Do you know  who has them and where they are?

This happened at the time when, if you were sent images, they had to come via the postal service, and there is always a possibility that they went missing in transit. But the originator certainly didn't get them back. I was lucky when my initial foray into 141 was in 1990 and there were quite a few squadron members still alive who were exceedingly generous in sending me photographs.

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21 hours ago, Basilisk said:

Thanks Andy for your reply. A shame that the owner is not willing to share this image. Is it known if the cock painting on most artworks is the correct size and at the correct location?

 

When will your book be published and who is the publisher? Would love to purchase a copy when published.

Cheers, Peter

As to the size and location one can assume so until one of those photos surface!

 

The publisher is Frontline/Pen & Sword and if I pull my finger out it should see light of day next year. It will include 250 - 300 photos; as an example I had access to the photo albums made Squadron Leader Phillip Hunter DSO OC 264 Squadron. I also have Defiant images taken at Hornchurch and Duxford during the Battle of Britain which are rather nice. So, we'll see how things pan out!

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I was in contact with some 141 Squadron personnel back in the mid-1980s when I was researching RAF Grangemouth.

 

Geoff Bailey, who subsequently wrote a book on Grangemouth may have been able to track others down. The book is here:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Grangemouth-Airfield-Special-Geoffrey-Bailey/dp/1904514316


Geoff works for Falkirk Community Trust:. You can contact him at Callendar House:

 

https://www.falkirkcommunitytrust.org/whats-on/christmas/callendar-house/

 

John

 

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2 hours ago, AndyL said:

As to the size and location one can assume so until one of those photos surface!

 

The publisher is Frontline/Pen & Sword and if I pull my finger out it should see light of day next year. It will include 250 - 300 photos; as an example I had access to the photo albums made Squadron Leader Phillip Hunter DSO OC 264 Squadron. I also have Defiant images taken at Hornchurch and Duxford during the Battle of Britain which are rather nice. So, we'll see how things pan out!

Thanks Andy, looking forward seeing your book published.

 

As the markings are to some degree speculative, this scheme is no longer an option as I only build aircraft of which I can locate some pictorial evidence.

Cheers, Peter

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1 hour ago, Basilisk said:

Thanks Andy, looking forward seeing your book published.

 

As the markings are to some degree speculative, this scheme is no longer an option as I only build aircraft of which I can locate some pictorial evidence.

Cheers, Peter

Thanks Peter, that's much appreciated. Sad thing is that Battle of Britain Defiants didn't have anything else in the way of nose art, but when you get to the night fighter phase, more art, and names come to light - I've got flying pigs, parachuting pigs, and heraldic dragons to name but a few!

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On 12/8/2019 at 11:21 AM, AndyL said:

In response to whether there are any photos of L7009, the answer is yes, but they are held in a private collection and the owner will not share the images. 

 

 

Looking forward to the book. Re the pics, sadly that's an attitude I've come across before, and not one I really understand, but each to their own

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  • 10 months later...

Just an update - Ian Donald was the pilot of L7009, and his family have been found. He was an exceptionally keen photographer ( as family members still are ) and they hold a lot of photographs taken by him, so we might just get to see an image of 'Cock of the North' after all. So, watch this space...

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On 12/8/2019 at 10:38 PM, Troy Smith said:

so they basically been stolen, and the new "owner" then won't let them be seen. 

Quite understandable - if I was in possession of stolen pictures I guess i wouldn't be showing them off.

 

Another class of owner who may be reluctant to show pictures is one who worries he will be persecuted for more once it is known he has some - I have come across a couple of those, for whom I have some sympathy.

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18 hours ago, mackem01 said:

Fingers and other bits crossed! Any news on the book??

Next year. Something called 2020 got in the way and due to a few issues I couldn't finish it. Trying to tie everything up by the end of the year.

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On 25/10/2020 at 21:03, fastterry said:

Now all we need is a nice new 1/32 Defiant, to sit alongside the new Whirlwind, with artwork that older eyes can see without glasses. Come on Special Hobby you know you want to.

TRF

 

Well that's a good idea if I've ever heard one. Wouldn't that be an interesting add to the collection?😁 before I built my 1/48 I had no appreciation for it, but now I love a good Defiant. One of my favourite parts of model building is the new found respect and knowledge of different aircraft.

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