Jump to content

WW2 Italian “Celeste” prop color


MDriskill

Recommended Posts

OK, I wasted a good part of last evening looking at the excellent nearby thread on Italian “smoke ring” camouflage, and the fascinating older threads linked therein! One of the subjects raised was the so-called “Celeste” color used to paint propeller blades. Below are three color photos, which I think make it obvious that the hue and glossy sheen of the this paint was different from the paints used on the airframe and engine. These were all filched from Pinterest.

 

Just an unsubstantiated hypothesis on my part, but this color may have been unrelated to the well-known “Tavola 10” airframe camouflage colors. Props being complex components typically procured separately from the airframe, might there have been separate standards for their finish?

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

Edited by MDriskill
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

bianchigreen_0.jpg

 

The colour reminds me a lot of the Bianchi bicycle manufacturer, and indeed a quick look suggests the colour may have originated from military use in WWI.   They did add some white to tone done it's military look.

https://www.italymagazine.com/featured-story/shades-italy-top-ten-italian-colours

 

There is also a thread over at Stormo Magazine with research suggesting some approximate FS values:

https://stormomagazine.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=549&p=3369&hilit=celeste#p3369

 

 

regards,

 

Jack

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here’s another example, on an Re.2000. MRP offers this somewhat darker Reggiane version in their line of paints. This image is from the excellent book “Wings of Italy,” a great compilation of WW2 color photos of Italian aircraft.

 

spacer.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would agree that the Celeste used on many propellers is not related to the Tavola 10, if only for the fact that this colour was in use before the Tavola 10 was issued.

Unfortunately til now I've not found any clear description of the colour, apart from being mentioned in the manual for the Ba.65, where a specific "celeste" color for propellers is quoted as final finish for this part.

It should be said that there is the possibility that some propellers were painted in what later became the Tavola 10 Grigio Azzurro Chiaro 1, as this colour seems to have been around before the introduction of the official document. At the same time it's clear that none of the propellers shown in the pictures above is in this colour. The CR.42 in particular shows a very different colour

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you, Giorgio! 

 

Whatever the truth and minutiae of it, a fascinating little detail for the modeler - I definitely need some blue propellers in my display cabinet soon, LOL

Edited by MDriskill
Link to comment
Share on other sites

“Here’s another example, on an Re.2000. MRP offers this somewhat darker Reggiane version in their line of paints”

 

Interesting, do you know which MRP color? I have the five kit Reggiane box from Sword and blue props would definitely be different

Edited by Chuck1945
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, expositor said:

Not that I could make a meaningful contribution to this thread, but doesn' t that prop color look a lot like the anti-corrosion cockpit color?

 

The problem is which anti-corrosion color ? There were a number of paints with anti-corrosive properties approved by the technical offices of the Italian ministry for aviation for use on military aircraft. Some were in green, some in grey.

Then there were a number of colours used to paint cockpits, some were green, some grey and some grey-green. The same Grigio Azzurro Chiaro 1 mentioned above was in 1941 requested as standard cockpit colour for all aircraft by the Air Force.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Chuck1945 said:

“Here’s another example, on an Re.2000. MRP offers this somewhat darker Reggiane version in their line of paints”

 

Interesting, do you know which MRP color? I have the five kit Reggiane box from Sword and blue props would definitely be different

MRP makes no less than 32 WW2 Italian WW2 aircraft colors!

 

The one I bought was MRP-332 Azzurro Celeste (dark like the Re.2000 above). Others in the line that might work are MRP-318 Interni Subalare, MRP-302 Grigio Azzurro (each a pale blue), and MRP-319 Azzurro Subalare (rather between the others).

Edited by MDriskill
Link to comment
Share on other sites

MRP Italian WW2 paints are quite unusual as they don't follow the most commonly used designations, that are those first introduced in the volume edited by the CMPR (an Italian modelling club that did a lot of research on the subject). In the CMPR list, the colours in the Tavola 10 have their proper official name while the others, particularly the earlier colours of the so called "Serie Mimetica" are indicated according to a system introduced by the same CMPR (for example Verde Mimetico 1 and so on).

 

The MRP line uses the names listed on the Vitochart, a series of colour charts for modellers issued in the '70s. The one dedicated to WW2 Italian aircraft was based on samples taken directly on the production line by the same person responsible for the series as he was employed by Fiat and so had access to a large nmber of paints used at the time.

The chart can easily be found with a quick google search, you will notice that the names and the colours are exactly the same used by MRP.

The original Vitocharts as published also included a text that explained which of the colours was used by which company, I know that Vitocharts were also available outside Italy, I've however never seen one with English text. This means that it may be a bit difficult to understand which of their colours is equivalent to the ones listed by the CMPR.

 

Back to tMRP 332, this is of course included in the Vitochart and named Celeste O.R., where these letters stand for Organizzazione Roma, the name used for the program relative to the conversion of the ocean liner SS Roma into an aircraft carrier (later named Aquila, Eagle). Because of the reference to the O.R., many believe that this was the colour used on the Re.2000 modified for use on this ship.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the explanations. I started using MRP a couple of years ago and that Reggiane five-box prompted me to order some of the MRP RA colors and I ran into that same problem of color names; none of the names MRP used matched up with names I had from the CMPR listings As it happens, MRP 332 is one of the colors I did not choose. I do have 304 Grigio Azzuurro Scuro Marino, a blue-gray. Some more internet browsing is apparently in order

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now that is fascinating! Giving my age away here - I own an original Vitochart that I bought when they were new (also the ones for French and Japanese aircraft). But I had not made the connection to MRP paints, very interesting indeed.

 

This page will give you a good bird’s-eye view of the MRP Italian set.

 

https://mrpaint.sk/Italian

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

The problem is which anti-corrosion color ? There were a number of paints with anti-corrosive properties approved by the technical offices of the Italian ministry for aviation for use on military aircraft. Some were in green, some in grey.

Then there were a number of colours used to paint cockpits, some were green, some grey and some grey-green. The same Grigio Azzurro Chiaro 1 mentioned above was in 1941 requested as standard cockpit colour for all aircraft by the Air Force.

I have some of those Italian books on the Regia Marina's seaplanes, and all the artwork of cockpits and cabins show a grey green color like the bike advert and the close-up of the fellow holding the prop blade.  I can only assume that those books are largely accurate.  I can' t doubt that light blue grey was a cockpit color,  but have never seen any pics or artwork that shows it.  If I recall, that Stormo site mentioned the use of blue grey, though I had the impression that it was not the usual color nor mandated, but I would tend to accept your explanation.

Edited by expositor
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Chuck1945 said:

Thanks for the explanations. I started using MRP a couple of years ago and that Reggiane five-box prompted me to order some of the MRP RA colors and I ran into that same problem of color names; none of the names MRP used matched up with names I had from the CMPR listings As it happens, MRP 332 is one of the colors I did not choose. I do have 304 Grigio Azzuurro Scuro Marino, a blue-gray. Some more internet browsing is apparently in order

 

Unfortunately translating the Vitochart and the MRP colours to the CMPR list is not the easiest of jobs... I personally don't use MRP paints as I'm happy with others, but when I had to convert them my approach was to find on the Vitochart the schemes proposed for a certain type or a certain manufacturer, then read the similar information on the CMPR book and then try to correlate the colours. Not the quickest job, maybe someone at MRP should do this job... job that is made even more difficult by the fact that some colours exist in one list and not in the other...

The problems are mainly for the "Serie Mimetica" colours, as the ones in the Tavola 10 are much easier to identify

 

9 hours ago, MDriskill said:

Now that is fascinating! Giving my age away here - I own an original Vitochart that I bought when they were new (also the ones for French and Japanese aircraft). But I had not made the connection to MRP paints, very interesting indeed.

 

This page will give you a good bird’s-eye view of the MRP Italian set.

 

https://mrpaint.sk/Italian

 

Did your chart come with a discussion of the schemes in English language ? It would be very useful to do the kind to comparison I mentioned above for modellers around the world... alternatively someone should think about translating the original Italian language description

Edited by Giorgio N
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, expositor said:

I have some of those Italian books on the Regia Marina's seaplanes, and all the artwork of cockpits and cabins show a grey green color like the bike advert and the close-up of the fellow holding the prop blade.  I can only assume that those books are largely accurate.  I can' t doubt that light blue grey was a cockpit color,  but have never seen any pics or artwork that shows it.  If I recall, that Stormo site mentioned the use of blue grey, though I had the impression that it was not the usual color nor mandated, but I would tend to accept your explanation.

 

For a time it was believed that cockpits in WW2 Italian aircraft were all in a light grey-green primer, the famous"verde anticorrosione" and a number of publications reflected this. Today we have more information on the matter, information that had in part been available for years but had for some reason been disregarded.

Today we know that in the years before the Tavola 10 was issued, companies used a number of colours. The light grey green primer sure existed, but there were other primers in other colours. Not only that, but companies often covered the areas in the cockpit with another coat of paint over the primer... that is nothing strange, it's the same approach that British companies used (the cockpit grey green of RAF aircraft is not a primer but a colour applied over the primer).

A factor that many seem to have forgotten is that the verde anticorrosione was a primer for aluminum surfaces... but not all aircraft had aluminum structures in those years ! Many had steel tubular structures with fabric or plywood covers, and a primer made for aluminum would have been useless on these materials. Yet the interior surfaces of there aircraft have for a while been described as being in verde anticorrosione...

As an example, the 1937 maintenance manual for the Ro.43, maybe the most widely used seaplane of the Regia Marina, included instructions about the finish of the fuselage interiors and this requested the tubular steel and wood structures to be painted in grey while the aluminum and fabric surfaces were finished in "aluminised" paint.

 

When the Tavola 10 was issued, Grigio Azzurro chiaro was explicitly stated as the colour to use for fuselage interiors and other cockpit details. There are official documents of the era that mention that such colour had been in use for cockpits before the introduction of the Tavola 10 and it is known by both photographic evidence and original manuals that many types had grey cockpits.

 

Can of worms ? Up to a point, really it's just the evolution of our knowledge thanks to the effort of many researchers. The relative freedom given to manufacturers by the Air Force sure does not help modellers, as for some types the choice of colour for cockpits depends not only on the type but also by what company built that specific aircraft. In the end all we can do is try to follow some known facts, hope to find a good colour picture and apply a degree of guesswork...

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, unfortunately my Italian Vitochart is 100% in Italian. The color names do include brief notes that match some colors up to dates or manufacturers though, which may help in correlating with the CMPR list. For example , the 4 main Tavola 10 colors have more or less matching names, and note (1941) underneath. These can be seen clearly in the “Stormo” site article (which includes an explanatory sheet that my copy lacks):

 

https://www.stormomagazine.com/Articles/NewColoursRA.html

 

FWIW, the Japanese Vitochart has the cover titles in Italian, English, German, and French, with the color names themselves in English (!) The French one is entirely in French, including an explanation under each color chip, and a chart that matches up all 36 color chips against 14 contemporary brands of model paints.

Edited by MDriskill
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This must be just a strange coincidence, but was approaching the celeste colour from the army angle, possibly their grey green paint.   Here is someone's repaint of an Italian helmet:

 

hel12.JPG

http://www.ww2italianreenactment.com/Helmetconvert.html

 

The fresh one on the left  (beside it on the right is dirtied up with black shoe polish), has an uncanny resemblance to the prop colour of the CR.42 image posted earlier.

 

regards,

Jack

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, MDriskill said:

No, unfortunately my Italian Vitochart is 100% in Italian. The color names do include brief notes that match some colors up to dates or manufacturers though, which may help in correlating with the CMPR list. For example , the 4 main Tavola 10 colors have more or less matching names, and note (1941) underneath. These can be seen clearly in the “Stormo” site article (which includes an explanatory sheet that my copy lacks):

 

https://www.stormomagazine.com/Articles/NewColoursRA.html

 

FWIW, the Japanese Vitochart has the cover titles in Italian, English, German, and French, with the color names themselves in English (!) The French one is entirely in French, including an explanation under each color chip, and a chart that matches up all 36 color chips against 14 contemporary brands of model paints.

 

Thanks for checking ! Guess that someone will have to translate the original at some point, would be useful to a few modellers. I may see if I can find the time and the dedication to do so over the coming Christmas holidays...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

 

The ceiling and the frame of the stairwell of my grandma's home were painted with italian WW2 colors as my grandpa worked for Regia Aeronautica, unfortunately house got sold this summer and we no longer have access to it otherwise I would easily chip some paint off.

Pardon the cat as those are the most recent pictures I got

Door frame was never repainted

Sink frame behind Shiranui was again at it's original state

Ceiling color is probably what you are after and it was closer to Humbrol 65 but a tad greenish

 

https://imgur.com/a/ysn4HWs

 

Luigi

  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...

Great information, I have been following the thread over on HS, that and this info will be very useful for when I restart my Italian model builds again.

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...