Javelins!

[Lord Riot]

Hi all, for my next trick I'm going to attempt some cheap Javelins.

 

I'll do the Heller T3 oob, and the Airfix FAW9 (though I know there's a slight rear fuselage error), but, I've just got a Mistercraft 'FAW7' which looks like a 9.

 

What would I need to do to make the Mistercraft kit look like an FAW7, or better still, an FAW8? Is it possible with a limited amount of skill, ie not too much cutting up?

[Antti_K]

Milord,

 

FAW.8 is actually identical to FAW.9; the only difference is the shorter nose as FAW:8 had an American radar. The conversion is among the easiest.

 

FAW.7 was a "Gun-Fighter". Some trials were made with missiles. When you compare FAW.7 with later marks there is difference in the wing. FAW.7 had a straight leading edge when viewed from the front. FAW.8 and FAW.9 had drooped outer wing leading edge. See more details in here (post #34):

 

Then of course FAW.7 didn't have re-heaters.

 

I'm already waiting for a WIP...😉

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Lord Riot]

Thank you Antti, that's helpful info!

 

I'd really like to build an FAW8 from West Raynham, but not sure if there's a suitable aftermarket nose, or plans showing where to cut off the FAW9 nose. I'll see what I can find out. Maybe I'll start with a 9 then buy another to convert as they're so cheap on ebay right now!

 

As soon as the Sea Fury is done I'll be making some Javelins!

[Selwyn]

2 hours ago, Antti_K said:

Milord,

 

FAW.8 is actually identical to FAW.9; the only difference is the shorter nose as FAW:8 had an American radar. The conversion is among the easiest.

 

FAW.7 was a "Gun-Fighter". Some trials were made with missiles. When you compare FAW.7 with later marks there is difference in the wing. FAW.7 had a straight leading edge when viewed from the front. FAW.8 and FAW.9 had drooped outer wing leading edge. See more details in here (post #34):

 

Then of course FAW.7 didn't have re-heaters.

 

I'm already waiting for a WIP...😉

 

Cheers,

Antti

FAW 7 had a completely different jet pipe area than the previous Mks,  without the pen nib.

 

Selwyn

[Wez]

Javelins you say?  Here's a short video about the Harmonious Dragmaster for inspiration...

 

 

[Lord Riot]

Cracking video Wez, thanks for that!

 

I read somewhere that for a 1/72 FAW8, you need to cut the equivalent of 6 scale inches (what's that in mm!?) behind the radome, then reattach. Is that correct as to me it looks like it should be more than that (ie even shorter nose) and furthermore, the FAW8 radome is a different shape to that of the 9? Or is that an optical illusion because of the shorter forward fuselage?

[David Womby]

The two Javelin radomes are very different shapes.  Not least because the one for the US radar (FAW2,6,8 IIRC) is slanted.   See the drawing here: https://aerofred.com/data/thumbnails/54/gloster_javelin_2_2.jpg

 

David

[Des]

Set of plans available with the Warpaint on the Javelin  -  https://www.guidelinepublications.co.uk/index.php?GOTO=453&PICFILE=453&STKNR=453&STRH=&ORDN=&RNZ=197618&THISVIEWMODE=2&SUPPLIER=&FINDRETR=&WIDENET=&CATEGORY=4&SUB=2&VWW=1  -  which include the different radome shapes.

 

Up until the reheated variants alternate versions had  a UK radar with vertical radome hinge line or a  US radar with angled hinge line , rather typical UK industry/Military thinking on not putting all their eggs in the one basket.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Des
Removed an excess 'k'

[71chally]

You'll be lucky to make the Mistercraft Javelin FAW.7 as a FAW.7, let alone another Mk!

 

It seems a general misconception that a Javelin is a Javelin, but it is surprising the subtle differences embodied through the various MKs.

 

I guess the other thing is how accurate you want it, if you are just building the Mistercraft kit then cutting a section out and putting the nose on again may be ok for you.

You would also have to add on the afterburner jet pipes and auxiliary intakes to make an FAW.8 and, if you are really picky, the outer wing leading edge camber, though for me that is barely noticeable in 72nd..

 

 

[Lord Riot]

Thanks James. I guess I'll give it a go and see what happens. Not sure whether to just build it as an FAW7 and see how it looks before attempting an FAW8. Ideally I'd like at least five or six Javs. I built the Novo FAW9 a couple of years ago and it didn't turn out too bad apart from my average painting and rather flimsy old decals.

 

I'm assuming the Mistercraft will be similar, though their decals include a fictitious serial 'XH858' which never existed! In fact the decals look rubbish.

 

 

[Antti_K]

Hello all,

 

Maurice Allward's excellent Javelin book gives data about the dimensions. FAW.9 is exactly 6 inches longer than FAW.8 - as someone already mentioned earlier.

 

FAW.8 was the last "new" variant built as such at the factory. All FAW.9s were up-dated FAW.7s. Or to put it in other words: a FAW.9 was a FAW.7 modified to FAW.8 standard only difference being the radar.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Admiral Puff]

6 inches = 152.4 mm. The formula is inches x 25.4 = mm.

[Lord Riot]

So scaled down I'm guessing that's 152.4 divided by 72 to get the actual mm to cut on the kit? Sorry, maths was always my worst subject!

[Antti_K]

Yes, that's correct. Six inches is 152,4 mm. Divide it by 72 and you get 2,1 mm to cut off the nose.

 

It came to my mind that if you have a surplus Frog or Novo FAW.9 radome, you could use it as the shape is rather good for FAW.8.

 

Here is picture from the Javelin Maintenance Training Manual showing you the radome for a US manufactured radar. As mentioned earlier the seam doesn't run in parallel with the fuselage frames:

 

 

Cheers,

Antti

 

 

[Antti_K]

And here is a comparison between FAW.8 and FAW.9 noses. Note especially the fact that in FAW.8 the fuselage-radome line looks almost straight when in FAW.9 it follows the curvature of the fuselage.

 

 

FAW.9 is the lower of the two.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[71chally]

Is the six inch difference in overall airframe length, or the nose part that is reduced?

I only ask because it looks a lot more than six inches difference from the radome / fuselage line to the windscreen base (or other references such as nose gear, or intakes) between the Mk.8 & 9.

 

2 mm reduction seems hardly nothing when you think that some kits can be that much out in length.

[Antti_K]

Hello all,

 

it says "Length" in the Allward's book, so I guess that six inches difference lies in the overall length. FAW.9 "Pilot's Notes" give a length of 56ft 4 inch (Allward's book gives 56ft 9inch. for the FAW.9 and 56ft 3inch. for the FAW.8). Allward also gives 56ft 3inch. for the FAW.7 which seems weird as the fuselage is the same for FAW.7 and FAW.9. I will look through my Javelin books for further information.

 

The FAW.8's radome itself looks longer than that of FAW.7 or 9, especially when viewed from the starboard side.

 

Here is a further "photo study" on the subject. I added the red lines to highlight the radome-fuselage joint.

 

 

Cheers,

Antti

 

 

[Graham Boak]

The two radomes look different because the US radar in the Mk.8 (and some earlier - 2 and 5?) had a larger dish than the UK radar in the 7/9 etc.  So it is not just a matter of shorter but also fatter, so simply cutting out a section will not produce a Mk.8, whatever magic you do with the hinge line.

 

Agreed that as an overall error, 2mm is of negligible importance, being a very small percentage.  However this is not true when viewed over shorter distance, as from the front of the windscreen to the tip of the nose.  Here that sort of difference can be seen.

[Colin @ Freightdog Models]

I have produced a FAW.8 nose conversion for the Frog/Novo kit. the Mistercraft kit is a copy of this kit. I released it at Telford but haven't put it on my website yet, hopefully will be listed this week.

 

Colin   

[Lord Riot]

@Colin @ Freightdog Models Thanks that sounds great - how much will they be?

 

 

This is really great info guys, thanks for your comments and photos. Some terrific knowledge here.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Lord Riot

[71chally]

It's an interesting one about the length difference, this came up before here but on a different aspect of the Javelin.

I would love to properly measure a Mk.8 against a 9 (which I guess Colin has done) and find out where exactly the differences are, obviously the fuselage metal work ahead of the cockpit is where the biggest change is, and I can see that the radome is slightly longer on the 8, but I'm still struggling with the 6 inch overall difference, the 8 looks way stubbier than the 9 in photographs.

 

Normally I use information from 'Flight' as they tended to get the data from the manufacturer, they always had the Meteor 14 length correct for example, but interestingly quotes both the Javelin Mk.8 ad 9 and 56' 4" which is clearly wrong.

 

The short Javelins were the FAW.2, 6 and the 8.

 

[Graham Boak]

it will look stubbier because of being fatter, that and the asymmetric interface.  However the other place to look will be how the canopy appears against the intakes.  I know this is different on the Mk.3, but this may just be confusing.

 

I've just looked at the Putnam's Gloster Aircraft by Derek N James.  He states that the only difference between the Mk.1. and Mk.2 (where it all started) is the radome, but quotes both at 56ft 2in as opposed to the afterburning versions at 56ft 11in.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Graham Boak
Missing original text added for clarity, It's what I meant to type honest!

[stever219]

 

 

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

it will look stubbier because of being fatter, that and the asymmetric interface.  However the other place to look will be how the canopy appears against the intakes.  I know this is different on the Mk.3, but this may just be confusing.

 

I've just looked at the Putnam's Gloster Aircraft by Derek N James.  He states that the only difference between the Mk.1. and Mk.2 (where it all started) is the radome, but quotes both at 56ft 2in at 56ft 11in.

With the exception of the T. Mk. 3 the cockpits and intakes of all Javelins were in the same palace relative to each other, in fact the overall fuselage shape remained more or less constant between the bottom of the windscreen frame and the trailing edge of the wing for all fighter variants of the type.

 

I suspect that the front fuselage of the Mks. 2, 6 and 8 were cut back due to the American radar being heavier than its British counterpart and the consequent need to keep any centre of gravity changes to a minimum so as not to alter handling characteristics too much (no need for MCAS here!).  Likewise Glosters probably wanted to keep as much of the original radome shape as possible which would hopefully ease production and minimise any changes in handling characteristics  due to changed aerodynamics.

 

The front fuselage of the Javelin has a slight taper, so the interface between fuselage and radome on the Mks. 2, 6 and 8 is of a greater diameter than that between nose and radome for Mks. 1, 4, 5, 7 and 9.  Couple that with the shortened distance between radome rear edge and engine air intakes and the aeroplane can’t help but appear to be much more blunt than the variants with British radar.