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Radpoe Spitfire

Gladiators into Gauntlets

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11 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

A few points:

 

As the cabane struts will be picking up on fuselage frames, or at least strong points, a change in stagger will result in raking the struts?  Or moving the position of attachment?  And hence fuselage structure changes.

 

Wing Area will include that "hidden" inside the fuselage.  It may well be a nominal value from an early design iteration rather than the final true figure, although this probably isn't relevant here.

 

Chord is usually the mean chord worked out from the wing area and the span, but again this could be different on such "plank" wing designs.

 

 

Graham,

As a fellow aerodynamicist (retired), I agree with you re wing areas. Quoted wing areas can be a mine field. They are often based on a preliminary design and are retained even after physical changes, as a change to the  factors used in calculating the aerodynamic parameters could cause major headaches. I suspect, based on the figures given by Seahawk in post #45, the quoted wing are does not include that "hidden" by the fuselage. Not unusual in per-war A/C.

 

Re cabane struts. my geometry is a bit rusty, but if you moved the upper wing forward by rotating the wing struts about their mounting the lower wing, wouldn't rotating the cabane struts about their lower attachments also produce a small increase in wing dihedral, due to the shorter length of the latter?   :confused:  Probably insignificant, but I am a pedant.

 

Bob,

I would be willing to help you in that research if someone could fund my travel as well! :unsure:  😀

 

Peter M

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Re dihedral: no, because you would've rotated the wing struts too, hence perhaps the reduction in gap?  Alternatively you'd just make them all a little bit longer.

 

If the hidden area isn't counted, then you can't find any easy relationship between aspect ratio, span and mean chord.  Which may explain why I couldn't get the numbers to work out last night, hence the cancelled posting.  (I had blamed it on trying to do the numbers electronically on the fly, rather than sitting down with pencil and paper and planning it properly, with each step visible throughout.  Maybe I'm not yet quite as senile as it seemed.). It also suggests that perhaps the chord quoted is really the "structural chord".

Edited by Graham Boak

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15 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

You will not bottom this out in London, but in Kotyka, Finland where the sole surviving Gauntlet is alive and well at Kymi airfield.

 

That works- my wife is Finnish, so I'd have to bring my daughter and her.  The RAF Museum is the best bet for Gauntlet and Gladiator manuals- I need to solve the Glad issue, too, remember!  But easy enough to stop over.

 

6 hours ago, Magpie22 said:

Bob,

I would be willing to help you in that research if someone could fund my travel as well! :unsure:  😀

 

Thanks Peter, works for me!

 

p.s. On the verge of not waiting, and ordering a Glad from eBay.  It is one of those "I'll buy it in any scale" types.  (I admit I don't yet have a 1/144th example, but do have 72, 48, and 32 (Silver Wings, obviously)).

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I'm waiting for someone to scale a chord off a screen shot from that nice Finnish Gauntlet video. I know that with screen distortion etc etc, it will not give an absolute figure but maybe an indication? :unsure:

Steve.

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Re  posts 51 and 52. It's not difficult to re-rig the wing stagger by changing the inter-strut fore and aft stagger RAF wires.  The top wing moves forwards by pivoting the two main wing struts (trapezoidally) on the lower strut fittings. However as the cabane struts have a different much higher, lower pivot point and they can't physically change their length, these must be replaced by new ones. Thus the dihedral remains the same. This is how it was done on the Wapiti. It might be achieved by a different lower fuselage strut fitting but the usual way was to make new longer cabane struts. As a result the wing gap will be narrower as the stagger increases.

 

John

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On 12/2/2019 at 5:03 PM, matti64 said:

How to go advanced plastic modelling  113783-10000-24-pristine.jpginside the  front cover...spacer.png

 

I have one of those. Great book. I’ve also just acquired one of the new ICM Gladiator kits and have to say it looks great value for money.

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On 12/5/2019 at 1:03 AM, John Aero said:

The tail wheel looks like a it's off a 109.

Hi John and the rest of the gang,

 

The GT-400 tail wheel is really from a Bf 109G. main wheels from Polikarpov I-15bis IIRC and engine, cowl and prop from a HP Pembroke.

 

About the lenght difference between Mk I and Mk II: Could it be explained with wooden propellor in Mk I and metal in Mk II?

 

Also fin and rudder are a bit different. Gauntlet has more simple horn balance and also trailing edge curve differs from Gladiator.

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee

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11 hours ago, AaCee26 said:

About the lenght difference between Mk I and Mk II: Could it be explained with wooden propellor in Mk I and metal in Mk II?

It might, but given that we know the II had a completely different fuselage construction under the skin it might be that too. 

Edited by Work In Progress

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On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 10:20 PM, Ossington said:

I'm sure that Chris Ellis converted the Airfix Gladiator into a Gauntlet in one of those 1970's modelling books that Airfix Magazine brought out. I haven't seen it for years, but I'll have a look.  

Yes he did, IIRC it was in How to go Advanced Plastic Modelling. I have the book in my collection. That era of books (there was an Almark one as well) are the reason I became enthralled with scale modelling

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4 hours ago, Charlie Hugo said:

Yes he did, IIRC it was in How to go Advanced Plastic Modelling. I have the book in my collection. That era of books (there was an Almark one as well) are the reason I became enthralled with scale modelling

The almark one was by Bill Matthews (W.R. Matthews)

 

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On 11/30/2019 at 6:20 AM, Ossington said:

I'm sure that Chris Ellis converted the Airfix Gladiator into a Gauntlet in one of those 1970's modelling books that Airfix Magazine brought out. I haven't seen it for years, but I'll have a look.  

Yes he did. Its called 'How to Go Advanced Plastic Modelling, my copy has a blue/white paper cover with hard binding. I bought it in Australia published by Patrick Stephens Ltd 1970

It included a conversion of the old Airfix Gladiator. He also used parts from the Airfix Hart/Demon kits (Good luk with that! but it was mainly the undercarriage.) The wing span extension is added "one rib station inboard of the aileron edge on each wing and adding a 40 thou card spacing....fill and sand to suit. photos, drawings and detailed instructions on the conversion too..

 

I believe the AZ kit is OK but you may need to find / make new longer struts?

 

HTH John H

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