Gladiators into Gauntlets

[Radpoe Spitfire]

With news on the horizon of a 1/32 scale Gladiator, my ears pricked up. 

I know the major differences  for a Gauntlet are the open cockpit and 4 strut undercarriage, but are there others?

 

[keith in the uk]

As far as I know the Gauntlet has four struts per wing ,  there is no fairing behind the cockpit , undercarriage legs are different , some aircraft had a three bladed prop fitted , the top wing is also slightly different from the Gladiator.

I converted the old Impact Gladiator into a Gauntlet and found it quite easy to do.

No doubt others here will know more . 

[Graham Boak]

Less importantly, no wing guns on the Gauntlet.

[Radpoe Spitfire]

Thank you so much for that. My special interest is 616 Sqn,  to date my 1/32's include Spitfires, a Moquito converted into an NF30 and an I.D. Models Meteor F.8.

 

I'd love to do Silver wings Hart (616 used the trainer version.) & HK Meteor F4, but the cost of kits is above my budget. However, I would consider a spend on the ICM kit.

 

If anyone can think of anything else about the Gauntlet, please let me know👍👍

 

Kind regards, Adrian

[Work In Progress]

The Gauntlet has a 6.5 inch greater wingspan than the Gladiator.  Most people miss this.

Also, in addition to the other wing differences already mentioned, the Gauntlet does not have flaps whereas the Gladiator is fairly unusual amongst biplanes in having them on all four wing panels.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Work In Progress

[72modeler]

I think what WIP, Keith, and Graham have posted is all correct. I seem to recall putting two sets of Heller Gladiator  wings in one box along with some Matchbox bits to do a conversion of the Heller kit a LONG time ago, but that's as far as I got. I was an idiot for selling my Aeroclub Gauntlet, but I do have the AZ Gauntlet, but haven't heard how good it is- guess I need to look for some accurate drawings. Anybody have the AZ kit who can comment? I can't remember the squadron of the one I wanted to do, but it had a black band from tip to tip, along the fuselage, and a black tailplane, wheel centers, and cowl ring as I recall. Maybe 111 Sq? (I'm getting too d---- old for this hobby!)

Mike

[Work In Progress]

55 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Less importantly, no wing guns on the Gauntlet.

True, but (unfortunately) a non-trivial problem with reference to the ICM kit as they have modelled a particularly brutal-looking recess to glue the under-wing gun gondola into. Bit of a shame they made it so emphatic. However, it is under the lower wing and therefore an area out of general sight, so the skilled Milliput artiste might be able to fill it slightly proud and then, before it cures fully, sculpt continuations of the fabric and rib tapes.

 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Work In Progress

[Radpoe Spitfire]

11 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

The Gauntlet has a 6.5 inch greater wingspan than the Gladiator.  Most people miss this.

Also, in addition to the other wing differences already mentioned, the Gauntlet does not have flaps whereas the Gladiator is fairly unusual amongst biplanes in having them on all four wing panels.

I didn't know that, do you know how on the wing this was addded- I.e. greater spacing between the wing ribs, at the wing root or a wider centre section?

[Work In Progress]

I don't have any super-reliable Gauntlet drawings to hand as my Aeroclub 1/48 Gauntlet is 200 miles away, but I don't believe it is a wider centre section. Bear in mind that the extra span was not "added": the Gauntlet comes before the Gladiator. And nor was it a simple subtraction. The Gladiator wing, while it has quite a lot of design in common with the Gauntlet wing, also has many detail differences and stress paths. Two bay versus single bay, armed wings versus unarmed wings, flaps versus no flaps. All four Gauntlet wing panels are different from Gladiator ones in several details.  I am pretty sure the tip shape is different, the Gauntlet having more elongated, almost eliptical-tending tips in comparison to the more squatly rounded Gladiator tips. 

 

Of all of us, John Adams, @John Aero , is probably best placed to answer. What I will say is that the Gladiator wing is far less straightforward in detail than you might expect. The rib spacing, for example, is all over the place, which caused me a lot of head-scratching until I realised it, while building a flying model with true scale rib and nose rib representation. 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Work In Progress

[Jure Miljevic]

Gauntlet Mk.I drawings, a bit simplified though, can be found here, and there was an article about this aircraft published in Scale aviation modeller in September 2003. Good luck with your conversion! Cheers

Jure

[Paul Thompson]

2 hours ago, 72modeler said:

I think what WIP, Keith, and Graham have posted is all correct. I seem to recall putting two sets of Heller Gladiator  wings in one box along with some Matchbox bits to do a conversion of the Heller kit a LONG time ago, but that's as far as I got. I was an idiot for selling my Aeroclub Gauntlet, but I do have the AZ Gauntlet, but haven't heard how good it is- guess I need to look for some accurate drawings. Anybody have the AZ kit who can comment? I can't remember the squadron of the one I wanted to do, but it had a black band from tip to tip, along the fuselage, and a black tailplane, wheel centers, and cowl ring as I recall. Maybe 111 Sq? (I'm getting too d---- old for this hobby!)

Mike

Quite a while since I built mine but as I recall it was quite a nice, limited run kit. The only problem was one shared by many AZ biplane kits, which is that you need to adjust some of the strut lengths, because the interplane and centre section struts would require you to distort the wings if you don't sort it. Vague memory that it was the centre section that needed trimming but could be wrong because I build mostly biplanes and have done scores since that one.  Whatever I did, the wing gap looks okay compared to photos and the plans in the Owen and Thetford book. Sorry for digressing from the thread topic.

 

Paul.

[dogsbody]

I've got this:

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Radpoe Spitfire]

41 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

I've got this:

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

Thanks Chris, that's a good help1👍👍

[Ossington 2]

I'm sure that Chris Ellis converted the Airfix Gladiator into a Gauntlet in one of those 1970's modelling books that Airfix Magazine brought out. I haven't seen it for years, but I'll have a look.  

[Magpie22]

There is a misconception that the Gladiator was a modified Gauntlet. The Gladiator was developed from the Gauntlet, (retaining basic layout and aerodynamic parameters), but it was a totally different aircraft. As pointed out already the wings and undercarriage were different. The rear fuselage on the Gladiator was also approx 1 foot longer. The internal structure was quite different, not surprising since there was to be an increase in weight of about 20%, and about 30% more power.

 

You would need to totally rework the wings - Increase span by 6", add more wing struts, change cabane struts, reduce wing stagger, change rib spacing, remove provision for armament, change ailerons, change cut-outs in trailing edge. 

Apart from the more obvious removal of cockpit canopy and fairing, you would need to shorten the rear fuselage by about a foot, (depends on variant of Gauntlet), modify stringer layout and add extra inspection panels.

All that would be left then would be to shorten chord of engine cowling, change the 'bulges', backdate the engine to earlier version, and make a new undercarriage. Depending on version of Gauntlet you are proposing, you may also have to alter empennage.

 

     Good luck!!!

 

Peter M

[stevehnz]

43 minutes ago, Magpie22 said:

You would need to totally rework the wings - Increase span by 6", add more wing struts, change cabane struts, reduce wing stagger, change rib spacing, remove provision for armament, change ailerons, change cut-outs in trailing edge. 

Apart from the more obvious removal of cockpit canopy and fairing, you would need to shorten the rear fuselage by about a foot, (depends on variant of Gauntlet), modify stringer layout and add extra inspection panels.

All that would be left then would be to shorten chord of engine cowling, change the 'bulges', backdate the engine to earlier version, and make a new undercarriage. Depending on version of Gauntlet you are proposing, you may also have to alter empennage.

So, apart from all that, nothing to it really.  

Steve.

[Work In Progress]

3 hours ago, Magpie22 said:

There is a misconception that the Gladiator was a modified Gauntlet.

Bravura post. To my shame I had forgotten about the Gladiator's longer fuselage

[MikeC]

3 hours ago, Magpie22 said:

There is a misconception that the Gladiator was a modified Gauntlet. The Gladiator was developed from the Gauntlet, (retaining basic layout and aerodynamic parameters), but it was a totally different aircraft. As pointed out already the wings and undercarriage were different. The rear fuselage on the Gladiator was also approx 1 foot longer. The internal structure was quite different, not surprising since there was to be an increase in weight of about 20%, and about 30% more power.

 

You would need to totally rework the wings - Increase span by 6", add more wing struts, change cabane struts, reduce wing stagger, change rib spacing, remove provision for armament, change ailerons, change cut-outs in trailing edge. 

Apart from the more obvious removal of cockpit canopy and fairing, you would need to shorten the rear fuselage by about a foot, (depends on variant of Gauntlet), modify stringer layout and add extra inspection panels.

All that would be left then would be to shorten chord of engine cowling, change the 'bulges', backdate the engine to earlier version, and make a new undercarriage. Depending on version of Gauntlet you are proposing, you may also have to alter empennage.

 

     Good luck!!!

 

Peter M

Jack up control column; insert new aeroplane underneath; lower control column.  Easy!

 

My days of turning one aircraft into another using Airfix Magazine articles and balsa wood are long gone, and the best I can do is hope ICM will follow up the Gladiator with a Gauntlet, and while they're at it a Fury, Bulldog and Avia B.534.  Don't want much, do I?

 

Seriously, ICM seem to be on a bit of a theme with the Gladiator, I-153 and Bu 131 recently, let's hope it continues.

[Seahawk]

15 hours ago, Ossington said:

I'm sure that Chris Ellis converted the Airfix Gladiator into a Gauntlet in one of those 1970's modelling books that Airfix Magazine brought out. I haven't seen it for years, but I'll have a look.  

Close.  It's in his How To Go Plastic Modelling: about 1.5 pages with side and plan view drawings on end papers.  Covering much of Magpie22's list, he recommends adjusting the wingspan by adding 40 thou inserts one rib inboard of the (Gladiator) ailerons and draws on the Airfix Demon kit for the extra wing struts, undercarriage struts, axle and, optionally, wheels.

[Paul Thompson]

34 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

.......................................and draws on the Airfix Demon kit for the extra wing struts, undercarriage struts, axle and, optionally, wheels.

Funny isn't it? Since that was written, there have been increasingly more realistic and useful strut materials available from Contrail, and then Aeroclub, as well as brass Strutz. And now they've all gone. I keep hoping someone will reveal to me some genuinely useful successor, but apart from that recent-ish tool for crushing metal tube from Albion Aloys I'm not aware of anything (except satay sticks, knives and sanpaper, which works well but is also really tedious and slow). Oh well, sorry, drifting off topic again...........

 

 

Paul.

[Admiral Puff]

13 hours ago, MikeC said:

Jack up control column; insert new aeroplane underneath; lower control column.  Easy!

 

My days of turning one aircraft into another using Airfix Magazine articles and balsa wood are long gone, and the best I can do is hope ICM will follow up the Gladiator with a Gauntlet, and while they're at it a Fury, Bulldog and Avia B.534.  Don't want much, do I?

 

Seriously, ICM seem to be on a bit of a theme with the Gladiator, I-153 and Bu 131 recently, let's hope it continues.

And the length of the control column probably needs to be changed ...

 

Hopefully ICM will follow up with all of those aircraft - I'd love to do a 3RAAF Gauntlet in 1:32! It probably depends, as much as anything else, on how well the Gladiator sells. It should do well, given the number of different air forces in which it saw service (I'm sure we'd love an upscaling of the 1:48 sheet, Rowan ...). My order went in a while back, and I'm just waiting for the Big H to respond.

[Magpie22]

7 hours ago, Admiral Puff said:

And the length of the control column probably needs to be changed ...

 

 - I'd love to do a 3RAAF Gauntlet in 1:32! 

One of my two 1/48 Aeroclub Gauntlet kits ended up as a 3 Sqn RAAF machine. Looks good with those b/w under surfaces and bomb racks.

Peter M

[JWM]

Of WWII , besides western Africa RAAF machines nice options are Finnish one (and Danish also).

I have AZ kit in stash as well as new Airfix and Sword Gladiators, so I can compare them

Regards

J-W

 

[JWM]

So I dig out Gladiators (sword and Airfix) as well as Gauntlet (AZ), all in 1/72

I have to assure you that AZ Gauntlet has bigger wingspan as well as shortered fuselage, if you campare to any of two Gladiators

The scaler is set for Gladiator wingspan, so difference is obvious

Less obvious but no doubt about is is shorterd fuselage

 

 

You may see also the differences in shape of wings among those two Glosters (not among Sword and Airfix kits )

I think that wings of Gladiator must have much stronger construction: with armament on it and mechanisation (flaps) and less struts...So it must be a different wing, though in outlay not so much different.

 

BTW - the Airfix Gladiator looks very impressive i box... One say I hope I will do them all

Cheers

J-W

 

[Admiral Puff]

The Airfix Gladiator goes together quite nicely. I have one ready for paint, which will happen if it ever stops blowing dust in this part of the world ...