AK Real Colors accuracy - can of warms strikes again

[JackG]

35 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

Hard to imagine paint scaling from 1:144 to 1:24 in and of itself.

 

Exactly, and that's the other problem when an outfit that puts their own spin on things, it's geared toward one scale - but I think what you are referring to is scale effect, the basic idea that colour becomes lighter and greyer over distance.  This is something you see in landscape paintings, but it's not really something modellers should be concerned with.

 

What AK Interactive is addressing is the fact that since the model surface area is small, there is not enough light to show actual paint colour, and appear darker than actual.   Again, I think this is something only those that enter competitions  are concerned with.

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2020 by JackG

[Graham Boak]

I would disagree, believing that dark and intense colours on small models will overwhelm the appearance, and make the model look little like the original it is supposed to be representing.  I first noticed this on an Airfix  Jaguar, painted in hues that closely matched the original, but which ended up to dark and sombre on the model.  I must admit not actually following this every time, but then I'm not so sure that it is quite as important on medium or very light colours.

 

Either way however, this is nothing to do with competitions, where such things are not matters for the judges to consider.  Many models that do win competitions look little like their originals - but that's generally for other reasons.

[alt-92]

2 hours ago, JackG said:

What AK Interactive is addressing is the fact that since the model surface area is small, there is not enough light to show actual paint colour, and appear darker than actual.  

I highly doubt that - again referring to the different scales kit manufacturers use.
If you logically follow through on your assertion, that would mean 2 different hues at least to account for scale effect for the extreme ends of the scale spectrum. 

I know of no paint manufacturer doing that - it's all a single colour hue (hopefully) matched to whatever standard number it is supposed to represent, regardless of the scale of the model it is applied to.

[JackG]

Right, so there is no doubt then that Real Color has attempted (to the best of their ability) to match military paint at 1:1 scale?  Thank you, that is all I wanted to know.

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

[JasonC]

38 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

I highly doubt that - again referring to the different scales kit manufacturers use.
If you logically follow through on your assertion, that would mean 2 different hues at least to account for scale effect for the extreme ends of the scale spectrum. 

I know of no paint manufacturer doing that - it's all a single colour hue (hopefully) matched to whatever standard number it is supposed to represent, regardless of the scale of the model it is applied to.

The old Aeromaster paint range used to claim that they had lightened colours for scale effect. Additionally, they suggested further adjustments to what came in the bottle to account for various scales. 

 

https://www.luftwaffesig.uk/blog/march-09th-2018#

[Jeff.K]

19 hours ago, JackG said:

 

Exactly, and that's the other problem when an outfit that puts their own spin on things, it's geared toward one scale - but I think what you are referring to is scale effect, the basic idea that colour becomes lighter and greyer over distance.  This is something you see in landscape paintings, but it's not really something modellers should be concerned with.

gotta disagree with that.

 

given the scale you're working in, figure out how close the viewer should be to the model. measure the distance from model to eye. multiply it out to determine what it would be in 1:1 scale. 

 

take two identical color card samples, and pick a spot. eave a card there. pace off your viewing distance (my shoes just happen to be 1' so for me this is easy). hold up the card in your hand and you'll see the difference and know how much you'd want to adjust the color for your model for a scale effect. 

that said, to my eye it makes sense to start with the best match to the original color as possible, so these are separate questions. i think manufacturers should stay out of the atmospheric perspective (scale color) business. 

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Jeff.K

[Mike]

I notice there's been a few minor hackles raised during a quick run through this topic, so can I issue a general "don't be that guy" warning, and advise that if it strays too far from the topic and into personal attacks, the thread will be closed and the combatants dealt with accordingly.  Thanks

[JackG]

My apologies if my posts here came across as advocating scale effect and such things.  Trust me, I'm on the side that wishes paint manufactures stick to formulas that closely as possible resemble paint in 1:1 scale.  

 

As for brands that do 'shift' their paints, yes I have heard of Aeromaster, this was their Warbird Acrylic Colours series?   The only other brand I know for certain that does this is Ammo of MiG.  Gone to the trouble of posting a screen shot with the underlined in red, directly from their site:

 

https://www.migjimenez.com/en/acrylic-colors/1290-raf-wwii-early-colors.html

-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Again I stress,  I'm not saying this how paint should be formulated nor how we, as modelers, should paint our subjects.  I've brought it to light to only better understand where REAL COLOURS is coming from, and inquiring if they took the same approach.

 

regards,

Jack

 

[TomCZ]

On 3/4/2020 at 3:06 PM, Nick Nichols said:

TomCZ, what did Nick answer you? If it is not a secret...

 

Nick was rather satisfied with Japanese colors in Real Color range.

UK/USAAF colors he cannot comment.

[Nick Nichols]

TomCZ, thank you very much!

It's a pity, but it was the colors of the RAF that most interested me.  

It's strange that no one has yet compared them to MAP colors . About color matching Luftwaffe is also interesting 

 

 

[JackG]

LSP did some reviews, here was their RAF paint comparison - well sort of, compared to other paint brands:

https://www.largescaleplanes.com/reviews/review.php?rid=2206

 

-----------------------------------

 

Looking back at the link posted on Nick Millman's comment on the Japanese paints:

 

"Despite AK's 'scale reduction factor' the J3 and J3SP are actually darker than my original swatches so will need to be lightened."

 

This was for their earlier paints in eyedropper style bottles, but wonder if the trend continued with Real Colours?

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by JackG

[Nick Nichols]

It would be better and more useful for everyone if they compared it to this:

 

 

 

 

[Nick Nichols]

I compared some RLM.... "It's a fiasco, bro!"

 

 

 

 

[Red Dog]

I love seeing pictures of the comparisons between different paint brands or paint chips/colour patches.

 

So Nick, for RLM colours you'd say a big no for AK's new Real Colours?

 

I know computer screens can interpret colours differently etc, etc, but those AK colours seem way off. What I'd like to know is how did they come to the colours that are in their jars? They claim to have done heaps of research but to be that far off.

But then they could be scale reduced? If they are scaled reduced then are they somewhat closer?

I suppose the next test would be to see how they look together on a model. Do their RLM 74 & 75 look good together and give a reasonable interpretation of those two colours on a scale model?

 

I have a few of AK's Real Colours (Aircraft) including their late RLM colours 76, 81 (2 of their 3 versions of 81) & 82 as well as 02. They are all different to the other brands that I have (including their initial release of aircraft colours 'Air Series' in dropper bottles).

 

[zigster]

What would be nice is: paint manufacturers stick to the original hue / shade etc, and let ME to decide, what "scale effect" do I want,

taking all "post-production" things, like weathering, into consideration.

They can even put a friendly guide, what colour to add, to make it darker, or lighter on their webpages. (becouse it is not simply B or W)

They can be as helpful, as to indicate - " this colour has a tendency to turn into XXXX shade in Pacific or Italian front".

Going back - they all should start with matching the original. Do I sound reasonable?

Zig

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

The cynic in me suspects that when searching amongst an existing range of colours for a match to some new swatch and not finding anything convincing, one might be tempted to pick one that's off in the lighter/greyer direction and just claim it's been adjusted for "scale effect" to save having to add an additional bespoke shade to the actual manufacturing programme.

[JackG]

Zig, that sounds very reasonable.  In fact, if the paint manufactures were keen on the idea of advising the modeler on how to 'scale' the paints themselves, they could potentially make even more money by directing them to buy additional paints, just like there already is all kinds of weathering products.

 

The other problem with scaled paints is decals. I don't believe these are printed to match this notion, so you end up with a visual mismatch.  I'm drawing up my own decals for future projects, and when inquired about scaling their colour, the printing outfit instructed me that it's best  to leave them as original colours, and weather them, and whatnot, after they are affixed to the model.

 

regards,

Jack

[Troy Smith]

17 hours ago, Red Dog said:

I know computer screens can interpret colours differently etc, etc, but those AK colours seem way off. What I'd like to know is how did they come to the colours that are in their jars? They claim to have done heaps of research but to be that far off.

 

this is about the Real Colors of WW2 armour book, by Mike Starmer (credit as an author) 

 

Quote

Regarding the AK book.  To be honest I am livid and disgusted at the way they published the British section.  My submitted original text was requested to be shortened, which I did.  They then edited that without my knowledge. I sent complete sets of camouflage diagrams with copies of the official orders.  These orders were totally ignored.   Then redrew some of the disruptive diagrams in their own style and colours transposed onto mostly American vehicles, apparently the British didn't have any of their own.  To cap it they then applied a disruptive pattern from one tank type onto another type, it doesn't fit of course.  The ultimate was putting the pattern for the Greek based A10s onto a Crusader which never carried the design nor deployed to Greece.  Samples of their paint were sent to me for assessment.  None were accurate, not even close, which I reported back with larger samples.  New samples then arrived for testing, still not right.  In discussion I discovered that they were matching under 'daylight' lighting!  FGS are they not sharp or what?  I gave them up as a waste of my time, I told them that too.  Rant over.

from 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235049761-british-olive-drab-no15/&do=findComment&comment=3252695

 

I have some AK Interactive USN/USMC 6 color set.  The white and 1 other color are of use as supplied.  

 

 

[Red Dog]

Why would they consult an expert only to dismiss their information? Seems bizarre. Bet he hates having his name associated with them. If they did it with his recommendations, I wonder if they also did the same thing with the the other experts they consulted for their 'Real Colors'? (Jurgen Kiroff, Przemyslaw Skulski & Steven Zaloga)

 

I have a quite a few of their Real Colors basically to do some comparisons between brands (mainly AK, Tamiya and Gunze). I just like having a number of options when a need a specific colour and choose one that looks right or works well with the other camo colours. More often than not I end up mixing my own.

Definitely over trying to find exact matches, just after something close that will be interpreted as the colour I want by other modellers will suffice. Strange how different brands interpret the same colour.

 

 

 

[Ed Russell]

50 minutes ago, Red Dog said:

Why would they consult an expert only to dismiss their information?

SOP for some companies - it's the name they want, not any info that contradicts their own.

[TomCZ]

On 3/30/2020 at 4:02 PM, Nick Nichols said:

I compared some RLM.... "It's a fiasco, bro!"

 

 

 

 

Thanks Nick, it is a no go for me in RLM. This is a way off.

 

 

[nsmekanik]

@Nick Nichols, you might want to send those paints back, looks like you got a bad batch as they look nothing like mine, I just got them in the mail so after reading your post I figured I'd check mine. They may not all that accurate but just based on the just the colors if I had to chose between Vallejo or Real Colors I'd bin the Vallejo's, so I wouldn't write them off just yet. 

Here they are compared to WEM"s version on a 190.

 

And on the chips, in these two pics the contrast between the AK and the chips/WEM colors appears greater on my monitor then in person.

 

So I painted up some card with AK's paints, Gunze Aqueous recently purchased RLM 74 and Mr.Hobbies RLM 75, which is the same as Gunze Aqueous RLM 75, unlike the way green RLM 74. They have been glossed so appear a bit darker then the chip but in person the Gunze 74 is almost identical to the chip.  Top left to right is AK's 74 and 74 and Mr.Hobbies 75, bottom is Gunze 74 and Mr.Hobby 75.

 

 

 The greenish cast of the AK 75 is not  noticeable when it's away from the violet cast of the chip etc. Far from being lightened the RLM 74 is to dark so lightening AK's 74 some what would make it comparable to Gunze's 74 and the chip. If you notice in the chips there are 2 RLM 76's, AK makes 3 versions, I have version 2 and it is very close to the Mr.Hobby version. In my opinion they'd do in a pinch, the pictures make things look a bit more extreme then they appear in person.

 

 

[nsmekanik]

Also as a foot note, I added some Tamiya XF-63 German grey to MR.Hobby RLM 74 until it was close to the Gunze Aqueous color. The interesting thing is that, while it was still a bit on the greenish side compared to Merrick's chips, it turned out to be almost an exact match to the Eagle Editions chip. I do believe that Merrick and Eagle Editions used 2 different Manufacturers on which they based there chips so this may not be so inaccurate. I don't think it's possible to get a "one size fits all" color in this game, while the RLM colors may not vary as much as Olive Drab did, I do think that who built the plane, where that plane was built, when it was built and who manufactured the paint would determine how close that planes paint was to the standard and in what way.

I like AK's RealColor paints to work with, it's just to bad that they didn't invest at least half as much into getting them right as they did into all the hype, I really wish somebody would take that that formula and do it up proper. as it is you can very much mix them with Tamiya, Mr.Hobby, Gunze, and Hataka Acrylics and Lacquers colors and thinners no problem.

[Nick Nichols]

14 hours ago, nsmekanik said:

@Nick Nichols, you might want to send those paints back, looks like you got a bad batch as they look nothing like mine, I just got them in the mail so after reading your post I figured I'd check mine. They may not all that accurate but just based on the just the colors if I had to chose between Vallejo or Real Colors I'd bin the Vallejo's, so I wouldn't write them off just yet. 

Here they are compared to WEM"s version on a 190.

 

 

 

 

 

 

We have the same thing, you just shoot in a different light, when all the chips will be a little similar. Here is a photo (made right now) when they look like yours. But if you look at them in a different light and at a different angle, they will also be from a "bad batch".

 

 

I mix my own colors, I showed it here:

 

This is once again compared to my chips and models:

 

 

I'm done experimenting. 
These colors are a waste of money

[nsmekanik]

Just using a good ole desk top light, no manipulation involved, on both my phone and my desk top the colors look pretty much like they do in person which is good enough for me, so it's a what you see there is what you get.