ESCI Phantom recommended?

[phat trev]

Any views on the rather old ESCI Phantom F-4c? Looks like a good early Phantom with engraved detail and scope for extra details. Anyone here built one or similar ESCI versions?

[lasermonkey]

If you mean the 1/72 kit, I've built a few. They mostly go together well, but sometimes need a pice of sprue or similar to spread the rear fuselage ( just in front of the burner cans) out by a millimetre or two.

 

The cockpit is very sparse, but if you like scratchbuilding, you can really go to town. I did a few resin copies of the Fujimi Spey phantom cockpits to place in future builds. Certainly, the older Fujimi F-4s were designed or tooled by the same people who did the Esci kit, with many parts being pretty much interchangeable. Also, the centreline tank isn't included in the Esci kit.

 

If you can get one cheap enough, maybe ten quid or so, I'd say go for it.

 

 

[phat trev]

Yes 1/72. Cheers for the detail  looking around online it is confusing at times to discover just what F-4 kits (older box types from Esci or Fujimi for example) have engraved and quality parts. Just my perception this btw. 

[lasermonkey]

I think the engraved detail on the Esci and Fujimi Phantoms was pretty darned good for its time and still better than some recently released Phantoms I could mention! The Esci kit is a bit more variable in quality than the Fujimi one in terms of sink marks and minor warping. I've had some that have fitted very well and some that have required a little persuasion in places.

 

I know you didn't explicitly mention the Fujimi F-4C but if you can get one for a reasonable price, it's also worth having, being so similar. One thing to look out for though: if there are photos of the contents, check for the multi part canopy. The initial release had a one part canopy that doesn't fit very well at all. 

 

Cheers,

Mark.

[Andre B]

Agree with Mark and Lasermonkey. The Esci Phantom's where state of the är art when they came. I think the Italeri kit also was made by the same mouldmaker as the older Fujimi and the Esci. But by some reason it lacked the engraved details. I  also share the experience that most F-4 kits needs some sprue to spread the fuselage to get an nice fit to the wings.

 

When it comes the cockpit it is spartan. But that goes for the Italeri and Fujimi kits as well. Much can be done here using aftermarket parts. But in the end the only thing that is to be seen is the top of the bangseats. The only 1/72 Phantom's I knew of that really have an well made cockpit is the "new" Revell kit.

 

As Mike said it has some sinkmarks that needs filler and usually demand some carefull work when joining the spine but in the end one have an rather nice F-4 Phantom II.

 

I usually buy the Esci/Ertl Phantom's when I see them. And for most time they make good value for the money...

 

Cheers / André

Edited November 24, 2019 by Andre B

[Jens]

The Italeri Phantoms - both 1/72 and 1/48 - have horrible outlines. Something is clearly wrong with them, but I think it's in so many places that it would be a waste of time to correct. Go with the Esci kits if you cannot find the Hasegawa kits.

 

Jens

[Lord Riot]

Are Esci kits any good these days? 

 

I only remember about 30 years ago building a 1/72 Esci Tornado and the shape looked weird compared to the Airfix one. I'm sure it must have improved since then though generally today Esci 1/48 F-16s seem cheaper on ebay than other brands.

 

 

[lasermonkey]

As far as Esci 1/72 kits go, I'd still recommend their Harrier GR.1, GR.3, Sea Harrier, F-5s, and F-100s. Their F-104s and A-7s are pretty basic, if serviceable, whilst the Tornado and F-16s are long surpassed. I don't know enough about their F-8 to comment, but they usually go cheaply on eBay.

[iainpeden]

You can't (well.......) use the ESCI kit for a B/N as it has the bulged wing to accommodate the thicker tyres used on the C onward. The ECM pods on the intakes (short on the N, long on the J/S) are not included in the C/J boxing and are included in the D/S ANG Bomber boxing - but are horrible. By now the decals will be useless and will break up as soon as you turn the hot tap on let alone get water anywhere near the sheet.

I think (only think) some of the E boxings included the TISEO but not the ARN-101 antennae on the spine.

 

That said at least 50% of my 200 Phantoms are ESCI.

 

With regard to the Italeri kit, first of all  I like them and reckon the slatted wing is the best available having the actuators and "lumps" on the wing tips moulded integrally.

[alt-92]

25 minutes ago, iainpeden said:

 By now the decals will be useless and will break up as soon as you turn the hot tap on let alone get water anywhere near the sheet.

That does not bode well, although not unexpected after 20-odd years.

I was hoping to rescue the aussie decals, as I do have AM sets for the rest.
Alternatively, anyone know of 1/72 OZ decals? Can't find any on Hannants.
 

[iainpeden]

You could find Aussie decals for a Hornet as I think the early ones were full colour. Alternatively scan the esci ones and reprint onto decal sheet or do the same with a colour copier. Technically against copyright but esci don’t exist and you’re not doing it for profit or gain.

[iainpeden]

I hope you realise that the esci phantom is now available as an italeri rebox. You can get the italeri F/G as a Tamiya rebox - confusing isn’t it.

[stevehnz]

There are a couple of after market alternatives for the Aussie Phantoms. Hawkeye sheet AAF-061 has markings for 1 & 6 sqns, as do the Novascale ones found on ebay. I've not used either so can't make any recommendations. I've just put up a question in tools & tips/decals which might shed light on which are best.

Steve. 

[NorthBayKid]

The ESCI Phantoms are pretty good as shelf sitters, but that's about the extent of it.  They were nice when they came out, but they were eclipsed a couple of times since then.

[stevehnz]

18 minutes ago, iainpeden said:

 confusing isn’t it.

Yup, so which boxing(s) contain the Esci plastic Iain?

Steve.

[PhantomBigStu]

13 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

Yup, so which boxing(s) contain the Esci plastic Iain?

Steve.

The ‘aces’ boxing 1/72, shamrock f-4j 1/48

Edited November 24, 2019 by PhantomBigStu

[lasermonkey]

35 minutes ago, NorthBayKid said:

The ESCI Phantoms are pretty good as shelf sitters, but that's about the extent of it.  They were nice when they came out, but they were eclipsed a couple of times since then.

Hmm, not sure I'd go that far. The Fujimi kit is slightly better (if you get the later release with the multi-part canopy) but over here, you're often looking at £20 for that privilege. The only other better kit (C/D) is the Hasegawa one, and they don't some up for sale very often and if they do, the prices they fetch can be eye-watering. And it's still not a quantum leap beyond the Esci kit. I have to say, when I got my first one I was quite disappointed by the sparse cockpit and lack of stores. It's also as fussy to put together as the Esci kit in it's own way.

 

I think we deserve better in the 21st century.

 

Cheers,

Mark.

[lasermonkey]

17 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

Yup, so which boxing(s) contain the Esci plastic Iain?

Steve.

This one:

 

As far as I know, the kit doesn't contain the D model's bulged chin fairing (as opposed to the standard fairing on the C model). The artwork above shows the bulged fairing, even on the C model!

 

Cheers,

Mark.

[stevehnz]

8 minutes ago, lasermonkey said:

This one:

As far as I know, the kit doesn't contain the D model's bulged chin fairing (as opposed to the standard fairing on the C model). The artwork above shows the bulged fairing, even on the C model!

 

Cheers,

Mark.

Thanks Mark, I've got that boxing, didn't know what I had then.

Steve.

[Romeo Alpha Yankee]

1 hour ago, stevehnz said:

There are a couple of after market alternatives for the Aussie Phantoms. Hawkeye sheet AAF-061 has markings for 1 & 6 sqns, as do the Novascale ones found on ebay. I've not used either so can't make any recommendations. I've just put up a question in tools & tips/decals which might shed light on which are best.

Steve. 

I built my Esci F-4E in RAAF markings using reclaimed kit decals (for the stencil/data stuff) and the Hawkeye Models Australia sheet.

 

Also regarding the Novascale/AussieDecal F-4E sheet, the kangaroo decals look slightly undersized to me.

 

 

 

[stevehnz]

5 minutes ago, Romeo Alpha Yankee said:

I built my Esci F-4E in RAAF markings using reclaimed kit decals (for the stencil/data stuff) and the Hawkeye Models Australia sheet.

Thanks Ray, it was following your thread that got me into thinking I need to firm up on one of these. Early in the thread you showed an Aussie decal sheet, how did that go? Your roundels look nice & opaque, in your photos at least, so was it Hawkeye ones in the end?

Steve. 

[Romeo Alpha Yankee]

5 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

Thanks Ray, it was following your thread that got me into thinking I need to firm up on one of these. Early in the thread you showed an Aussie decal sheet, how did that go? Your roundels look nice & opaque, in your photos at least, so was it Hawkeye ones in the end?

Steve. 

Steve,

 

I compared the two sheets, I used the Hawkeye one as it had more detail decals than the Aussie sheet and the roundel size issue.

[NorthBayKid]

1 hour ago, lasermonkey said:

I think we deserve better in the 21st century.

 

My eyes and fumble fingers don’t allow me to do much in the way of 1/72 stuff that small any longer, but I agree with you.  What the world needs, in addition to a good 5 cent cigar, is a really good family of 1/72 Phantoms, from the F4H-1 right up through the very end of the line.

[Giorgio N]

18 hours ago, Lord Riot said:

Are Esci kits any good these days? 

 

I only remember about 30 years ago building a 1/72 Esci Tornado and the shape looked weird compared to the Airfix one. I'm sure it must have improved since then though generally today Esci 1/48 F-16s seem cheaper on ebay than other brands.

 

 

 

Esci was sold to Ertl in 1987 and in a sense the glory days of the company ended that year, In fairness to Ertl, Esci continued to produce new kits, some not bad, for a few years. When the holding that contolled Ertl took control of Esci however things changed considerably and qualirt plummeted. In any case the name Esci disappeared in 1999, so Esci kits these days are all at least 25 year old...

Since Esci never tooled anything themselves but subcontracted the manufacturing of their moulds, the quality depends on who made the mould for each kit. The best are considered those made from the late '70s to the mid '80s by the Japanese Suntak.

 

17 hours ago, lasermonkey said:

As far as Esci 1/72 kits go, I'd still recommend their Harrier GR.1, GR.3, Sea Harrier, F-5s, and F-100s. Their F-104s and A-7s are pretty basic, if serviceable, whilst the Tornado and F-16s are long surpassed. I don't know enough about their F-8 to comment, but they usually go cheaply on eBay.

I would add the 1/72 Huey to the list of recommended kits. IMHO the Esci UH-1 is a little gem,

The F-8 was IMHO not great, kind of a Hasegawa clone with not great recessed panel lines. I believe the mould was made by the Korean Lee, that in those same years made several similar clones of Hasegawa kits (some of which were also sold by Revell).

I kind of disagree on the F-16.. yes there are better kits on the market today and the Esci kit features a couple inaccuracies, but it's still a nicely moulded kit, at least if it's in an original Esci box. Later AMT issues were of lower quality. In general every Esci kit issued under AMT is worse in terms of sharpness of the parts compared to the original Esci boxes

 

[andyf117]

When I was having a 'Phantom Phase' back in the mid-80's, I had two or three examples of each of the ESCI F-4 kits, which were still 'new' at the time...

....I went to town in particular on one of the RF-4Cs, cutting off the radome to fit a radar dish, and opening the nose bays to install cameras - but it stalled...

....I only ever finished three - two C's (one as a D) and an S - most of the rest got started but never completed, and it's only a few years ago that I sold them all off...

 

....yes, the cockpits were quite sparse, and as someone's mentioned, using a sprue 'spreader' (immediately ahead of the burner cans) helped the fit of rear fuselage to wings...

....but I remember that they were nice kits, and the various boxings came with additional/optional parts as appropriate - the E/F, for example, had the above-mentioned TISEO; separate leading edge slats; slotted and un-slotted tailplanes; and short and long gun fairings; items such as the slats and tailplanes were in other boxings...

 

I agree with Giorgio about the ESCI UH-1, despite the criticism by some regarding the cabin door windows - despite already having at least half-a-dozen, I recently picked up two more off eBay for a fiver each...