Seafire lll - Use of Mk V 20mm Cannon

[roncl]

One item I also meant to mention was the modification to the Seafire wing that took place with the development of the folding wing of the Seafire lll. In an effort to reduce weight and drag, the outboard cannon stub was removed from the outboard cannon bay. This modification resulted in an increase of 5 mph to the fighter’s top speed. 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

The missing stub was also seen on at least one batch of Spitfire Mk.IXs, which would be earlier than the folding wing, I suspect. At least earlier than most Seafire IIIs.

[Giorgio N]

I've had some time to check the pictures in the French volume mentioned above and there are pictures of Seafire IIIs with the shorter fairing, as well as some of aircraft with the original long fairing. A nice picture also shows the presence of both types in the same flightline.

The problem is that it is very hard to read the serials in these pictures, even when these are present (maby French Seafires retained the original British serial). I'l see if I can find a table correlating the unit codes to the serial number, as unit codes are easy to read.

I should add that in some pictures it's not easy to tell which fairing is present, as depending on the angle the same aircraft may seem to show different fairings, so this is not always a simple exercise

[Tomas Enerdal]

My guess is that the weight tables for the F/LF III shows the configuration as originally designed, i.e. with the heavier Hispano Mk.II. Note that several references states (see posts #2 and #4 above) that Mk.V were introduced during production. When production of FR III started Mk.V was probably fully introduced, hence the lighter weight in the tables? This reasoning does not rule out the presence of  Mk.V in F/LF III, but an ammended weight table would then be needed for such aircraft.

(If I understand the weight tables correct: I wonder if removing cannon weight forward of CoG is compatible with adding camera equipment rearward of CoG. Wouldn't a too far rear CoG be a problem?)

The pic of NN621/115N is interesting!

This pic can be seen in several references, the largest and clearest I have is in "Eyes for the Phoenix". The proportions of the stub on the wing, the spring on the barrel and the foremost part of the barrel corresponds exactly with what a Mk.V looks like in the installation drawing mentioned in post #2. (I'm reluctant to reproduce it here, copyright infringement?) 

According to Sturtivant NN621 was delivered to 880 Sq. in March '45. And if I remember "They gave me a Seafire" correctly, 880 together with 801 Sq had several LR III. My conclusion therefore is that they, and therefore Mk.V cannons would have been used operationally.

BTW, decals for NN621/115N exist in 1/48, both Aeromaster 48-769 and Kits-at-War K4/5 can be found in my stash. Lets just hope that Eduard starts making short nosed Spit-/Seafires in the future!   

 

 

[Graham Boak]

Much of the mass of the cannon was concentrated around the cg, although the actual reduction in barrel length would count as slightly destabilising: it and the fitting of the cameras would work together in a bad sense in moving the cg aft, as you say.  However, if this is considered alongside the PR Spitfires, it would not seem to be a problem.  It may have made the aircraft slightly less pleasant to fly.  In comparison the aft fuel tanks were considered seriously destabilising, although there appears to be two opinions on whether this was due to the upper of the two tanks in particular and handling was satisfactory with just the lower tank - as was used in service on the Mk.XVI,   Bearing in mind the Seafire's known range limitations, it is perhaps odd that these tanks do not seem to have been considered.  Or were they?

[Seahawk]

For me the argument risks running ahead of the available evidence.  Firstly the weight tables (NB I only have these as reproduced in Morgan/Shacklady): the tables (untitled, undated, with no reference to a specific airframe tested) are accompanied by diagrams stating how far forward/aft of the aircraft datum the CofG of each piece of equipment is located.  It seems to me that the table, while representatative of a FR.III with Mk.V cannon, could well be based solely on calculations (using weight and momentum arm to give moment).  But let's assume for a moment that it was based on a real airframe: it seems to me a leap in logic to conclude that, because the test aircraft was an FR.III with Mk.V cannon, use of Mk.V cannon on Seafire IIIs was confined to the FR.III variant (and I note that both Ewen and Tomas have carefully avoided going that far).  There are rational reasons to speculate that that might have been the case but no more than that.  

 

As for the photo of Mike Crossley's NN621 115/N, I have looked at the same photo as reproduced in both Eyes For The Phoenix and Brown's Seafire with my strongest glasses on and, while agreeing that the cannon fairing appears to have been removed, I am unable to discern where the end of the cannon barrel is so for me, as for Ewen, this photo is inconclusive. 

 

Until stronger evidence emerges, I'm sticking to my opinion that no Seafire III armed with Hispano Mk.V cannon saw active service during WW2.  But I am keen to see @roncl's pictures.

 

2 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

I've had some time to check the pictures in the French volume mentioned above and there are pictures of Seafire IIIs with the shorter fairing, as well as some of aircraft with the original long fairing. A nice picture also shows the presence of both types in the same flightline.

The problem is that it is very hard to read the serials in these pictures, even when these are present (maby French Seafires retained the original British serial). I'l see if I can find a table correlating the unit codes to the serial number, as unit codes are easy to read.

I should add that in some pictures it's not easy to tell which fairing is present, as depending on the angle the same aircraft may seem to show different fairings, so this is not always a simple exercise

French Seafires did retain their British serials.  Spitfire International gives individual histories for the French aircraft, which contain some serial/code correlations though, as in Sturtivant's FAA Aircraft, that info is only as complete as the source data.  If you like, drop me a PM a list of the codes you'd like identified, preferably with dates, and I'll see what I can find out.  Chances are, some of the photos are the same anyway (see my post 9, which may describe your "nice picture"?)

Edited November 25, 2019 by Seahawk

[Tomas Enerdal]

When I look at the pic of NN621 115N it is the length of the stub behind the spring that gives the shorter barrel of a Mk.V away. At the front end of that stub is the front mounting of the gun. The front mounting is further forward from the wing leading edge with the longer Mk.II barrel, leading to a longer stub (more the twice the stub length). It seems that the difference in barrel length lies between the house of the cannon/rear mounting and the front mounting. The spring and the part of the barrel in front of it are the same length, as are the fairings.  

This I have deducted from gun installation drawings reproduced in the Valiant Wings books about the Spit.

I  may of course have misunderstood these drawings completely. And it is of course my interpretation of that pic that leads to the conclusion.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Tomas Enerdal

[gingerbob]

OK chaps, back home.  I found Seafire Mod No. 207 "To introduce Mk.V cannon".  The ledger says that it pertains to the Mk.III (only version mentioned)- no, wait, somewhere else it says "Common on Mk.XV" [and presumably XVII].  The dates, as far as I can make out: LTC No 1216 24(?)/6/43; No 1633 11/7/44.  While I don't claim to understand how to interpret Mod dates, my hunch based on other examples is that the first is when it was first brought up as an idea, and the second might be when it was more like, "OK, we're ready to enact this now, or to plan to".

 

Incidentally, Mod 205 was the same first date (LTC No 1214) "To introduce one oblique and one vertical F.24 camera in Seafire L.Mk.IIC".  That mod doesn't mention Mk.III.

 

Mod 602 "To introduce Mk.V 20mm guns together with electric firing mechanism" pertains to the Mk.46, and is LTC No 2000 12/6/45.

 

Both of the gun mods are Class 4B, if anybody knows what that implies (I'd have to go digging).

 

bob

[roncl]

Hi Everyone,

 

Further to my post above, I have found a number of videos that certainly appear to show Seafire llll’s with the Mk V shorter barrel cannon installed. The video’s also appear to show the Seafires flying in a WWll operational environment.  However, given that there are no dates to reference when the videos were taken, it will be difficult to establish a specific date when the operations were filmed.

 

Links to three  videos that contain excellent Seafire footage are provided below.

 

1) Flight Deck of British Aircraft (1945)

 

 

 

 

A significant amount of Seafire carrier operations are contained in this video, including some rough landings and the pushing off the deck of a written off Seafire lll.  There is film of both long barrel and short barrel Seafire lll's in the video.  In the footage of the Seafire lll being pushed off the deck at the 9:40 mark, it is clear that the cannons installed in the wings are the short barrel Mk V cannons.

 

2)  Rest and Repair at Leyte, 1945

 

This video has some great footage of both long and short barrelled Seafires being loaded off and onto the carrier deck.  I will post some screen shots highlighting the short and long barrels in my next post.

 

3)  Supermarine Seafire in Colour

 

This video has some great footage Seafire lll's taking off the carrier.  Pausing the video confirms that the short barrel Mk V cannons are fitted to these Seafires.

 

I will  post some screen shots that will provide a more detail.  From what I can tell, these videos would seem to indicate that the Mk V cannon was used operationally during WWll in the Pacific Theatre.

 

Ron

 

[roncl]

Here are some screen shots from the above videos.  You can see both the long barrel and short barrel cannons installed in these Seafire lll's.  It appears to me as if the Mk V cannon was used operationally in WWII.

 

Hmm, having trouble posting pictures.  Stay tuned.  Thanks.

 

Ron

 

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by roncl

[roncl]

Ok, I will try now.  Attached are some screen shots from the above video links.  You can see both long barrel and short barrel fairings on the cannon barrels of the various Seafire lll's.  The barrel fairings certainly took some abuse when the aircraft crashed.  The fairings are completely off the Mk V cannons in the first and fifth pictures.  

 

 

.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by roncl

[roncl]

A couple more pictures of Seafires showing both the long barrel Mk ll cannon and the shorter barrel Mk V cannon.  The difference in barrel length is quite noticeable.  The cannon barrels and fairings, not to mention the whole aircraft, definitely took some abuse when the aircraft hit the barrier wires.

 

 

Don't know anything about this picture, but definitely a Seafire lll with Mk V cannons and no fairings on the guns.  

 

 

 

 

The Seafire on the left has the long barrel Mk ll cannons, while the one on the right does not have a fairing on its Mk V cannon barrel.  I have seen a picture of Mike Crosley sitting in Seafire lll NN621,1115/N and it appears as if there are no fairings on the Mk V cannons.  I wonder if they flew the aircraft without the fairings on occasion.

 

 

 

[Grey Beema]

Flight deck '45 film is from HMS Implacable 30th Naval Fighter Wing 801 NAS & 880 NAS.  My understanding is that Implacable joined the BPF in June 45.  

 

The Seafires of Implacable can be recognised by the Carrier letter 'N' on the tail, aircraft recognition numbers (1xx) on the fuselage and some of the are fitted with P40 tanks allegedly traded for whiskey.  

 

Indefatigable's Seafires of 24 NFW 880 NAS & 894 NAS have the Carrier letter 'S' and aircraft ID number (1xx) on the tail and if fitted, slipper tanks. 

 

I suspect all of your stills above cover Implacable's Seafires.  I cannot tell for the resupply at Leyte movie.

 

Interesting though.  I have at least two Seafire builds. Coming up..

• Seafire III NN341 possibly ‘3A’. Flown by M Crosley 07.06.44 1735 Destroyed Bf109, 15 miles SW Caen / 5m S Evrecy. 
• Seafire III LR866/S121 flown by V Lowden 15.08.45 Destroyed 2.5 A6M Zeros, Japan 

What I'm thinking is that NN341 was probably MkII Cannon but LR866 may be either?  Thoughts?

 

 

[EwenS]

On looking at the first two videos I realised that I first saw this footage 25+ years ago when the late Roland Smith produced his “Royal Navy at War” series on VHS (remember those?) and then DVD. So I went and dug out the BPF/EIF one to see what else I could add.

 

Video 1

Grey is correct. The footage was shot on Implacable (you can see her ships name plaque and battle honours on the side of her island in some shots). Given that she is seen operating with several other fleet carriers in the film, then it was taken sometime in the 6 week period between the beginning of July and 12 August 1945 when she left the operational area off Japan.

 

801 and 880 Seafire III squadrons served on Implacable during this period with a total aircraft complement of 48. Minor correction Grey. The FAA reorganised on 30th June 1945 and 30th Naval Fighter Wing disbanded, with the two squadrons becoming part of the 8th Carrier Air Group with 828 Avenger and 1771 Firefly squadrons. As noted the Seafires were marked with a large “N” on the fin denoting Implacable and carried numbers ranging from “111” upwards. The highest I can recall seeing is “156” on one of the videos.

 

Grey you are also correct about the belly tanks on the two ships, and that helps to identify the squadrons involved.

 

And yes when I actually look for them I can see some aircraft with short cannon fairings. This actually makes sense as she did not leave the UK until 16 March 1945 and picked up some new aircraft before she left e.g. NN621 and NN622 both built 2/45.

 

Video 2

Roland Smith attributed the location of this video to Manus not Leyte, and that makes it a bit more difficult to date precisely. For a number of reasons concerning the proximity of land, ships present and lighters being used to ferry the aircraft, then I tend to agree with Mr Smith about the location. Whether or not it was all filmed at the same time I doubt anyone can say. Amongst the footage is HMS Pioneer, an Aircraft Maintenance Ship, which arrived at Manus from the UK on 21 June and remained there until 30 August 1945 before sailing for Hong Kong. As far as I can tell she went via Subic Bay not Leyte.

 

And yes, again it certainly appears that some of the Seafires have the short Mk.V cannon which I’d not previously noted. BUT this was shot in the rear areas and despite many aircraft being supplied to the fleet when it was at Manus at various times between February and August 1945 or via escort carriers while in the forward areas it doesn’t show that these particular aircraft saw combat. It merely shows that such aircraft were in the theatre and COULD have been supplied to the fleet carriers. So not as persuasive as Video 1. Much would depend on exactly when those scenes were shot but the cut off would have to be the end of August 1945 when the Fleet Train migrated to Hong Kong.

 

Video 3

Of the 2 Seafires taking off, then the second appears to have the short cannon. I can’t make out what the first has. In the flying sequence at the end, I’d say that that aircraft had the long cannon.

 

Incidentally this seems to have been taken after the beginning of January 1945 (Type C roundels on the wings), in home waters (look at the clothing of the deck crew) and on an escort carrier, therefore on a training carrier (probably HMS Battler or Ravager). So these were either with a training squadron or one of the new Seafire squadrons formed in 1945 on Seafire III that later got Seafire XV i.e. 802, 805, 806 or 883. Those squadrons got a number of late production Seafire III.

 

Looking at your first batch of screen grabs, I’m undecided about no.1 & 5, which are of the same aircraft, and wonder if it is just the angles that make it seem shorter. No.1 looks short but no.5 long. Nos.3 & 4 seem to my eye to be long barrels and nos.2 & 6 short. Of course what is missing here are the serial numbers of the aircraft involved.

 

This business with the lack of fairings is bugging me. Yes the cannon appear shorter but I’m not sure that they are short enough for a proper Mk.V cannon. The Mk.II extends to a line roughly parallel with the forward exhaust stack or maybe a bit further forward. Maybe it is the angles from which film / photos are taken but in that photo no.5 the barrel seems to reach at least the forward-most or next forward-most exhaust. Faired Mk.Vs seem to end about the 3rd exhaust from the front. Anyone else got a view?

 

Judging by the belly tank, photo 2 in your second batch is from Implacable, probably 801 squadron while shore based in Sept / Oct 1945 after its return from Japanese waters and before getting Seafire XV. In fact the more I look at it the more I feel it could be Crosley’s Seafire taken at the same time as that line up that appears in the books previously referred to.

 

Footage of Indefatigable’s Seafires seems to be rarer. But in a short clip from July  / Aug 1945 she may well also have had one or two Mk.V equipped and with slipper tanks.

[Seahawk]

7 hours ago, Grey Beema said:

What I'm thinking is that NN341 was probably MkII Cannon but LR866 may be either?  Thoughts?

NN337 still had Mk.II cannon in 1947 (Sturtivant: FAA Fixed Wing Aircraft since 1945, p.521), so think you'd be safe enough in your assumption for NN341.  LR866 was completed in 12/43, which seems improbably early for Mk.V cannon (unless subsequently refitted).  Certainly LR838 still had long cannon in May 1945 (Sturtivant: FAA Aircraft 1939-45, p.389)

[Seahawk]

Agree with the dates and idents from @Grey Beemaand @EwenS and pretty much their conclusions as well.  I'll leave the topographical analysis to others: not my subject.

 

Film 1: yes there are certainly some Seafire IIIs with short cannon fairings among the aircraft shown, suggesting that such aircraft did indeed see action during WW2 (QED).  It also suggests that we need to advance the introduction of the Mk.V cannon to the last aircraft in the NN333-641 serial batch.  Venturing out onto thin ice, I'd suggest as a working hypothesis that any NN-serialled aircraft produced in 1945 (ie from NN570 onwards) might have had Mk V guns and it's not impossible that a handful of aircraft before that did.   I'd also suggest it shows that short cannon were not confined to FR.IIIs since of the late NN-serialed aircraft Implacable embarked in March 45 only one is recorded as a FR.III.    Pity we can't identify individual aircraft from the film, though I think 111/N is one short-cannon aircraft.

 

Film 2: again, yes there are certainly some Seafire IIIs with short cannon fairings among the aircraft shown but I agree Ewen's point:

1 hour ago, EwenS said:

 BUT this was shot in the rear areas and despite many aircraft being supplied to the fleet when it was at Manus at various times between February and August 1945 or via escort carriers while in the forward areas it doesn’t show that these particular aircraft saw combat. It merely shows that such aircraft were in the theatre and COULD have been supplied to the fleet carriers. So not as persuasive as Video 1.

Film 3: agree that this film was almost certainly shot late in the war on a training carrier in Home Waters.  But we'd already concluded that aircraft with short cannon were in the supply chain by then, so this doesn't advance the argument, not that it needs advancing now we've seen Film 1.

 

BTW: thanks to @roncl for the third (colour) film: at the very end there is the first colour film I can recall of the contentious high contrast Seafire camouflage scheme: IIRC it used Ocean Grey and Dark Green and was peculiar to Seafires built by Westlands.

 

When time permits, I'll go through my Roland Smith DVD on frame advance to see if I can add anything further.

[EwenS]

Seahawk

Re your theory, we are thinking along the same lines. But there is another complication here. Two manufacturers. Westland were the prime subcontractor on the Seafire. Cunliffe Owen were a second source and from some research I did last year they seemed to lag about 6 months behind Westland. For example the introduction of the Mk.XV to the production line and the same with the sting hook. Don't know if it happened with the cannon but its a possibility.

 

NN570-641 were Cunliffe Owen aircraft. They were followed by 50 PX serialled LF.III and 50 SP serialled aircraft. The SP serials were originally ordered as Mk.XV and came off the production line between March and July 1945 at the exact same time as the first C-O Mk.XV batch, so in my theory would almost certainly have been equipped with the Mk.V cannon. Only a handful of these last 100 aircraft were prepared for shipping to, or were shipped to, the Far East by the end of the war.

 

If the modification was introduced by Westland at the same time that would be PR302-334, and then the RX serial batch. Interestingly PR314 produced in Jan 1945 went Vickers High Post and then to the A&AEE for armament trials and features in several photos on p537 & 538 of Morgan / Shacklady. It looks like short cannon to me. Also there seems to be hiccup in deliveries between PR302 and PR316. Some delivered in Jan 1945 and some in Dec 1944. Maybe effect of Christmas hols or maybe of a production problem (new cannon?)

 

As an aside does anyone know why 31 of the 50 Cunliffe Owen PX serials are noted by Sturtivant as L.IIIc with the other as L.III?

[Graham Boak]

Re L.IIIc v. L.III.  I don't know, but if I had to guess the first 31 had the out gun stub (which two holes in leading edge panel) whereas the last one had the single hole panel and thus strictly weren't C (i.e. universal) wings anyway?  Which has the benefit of some kind of logic, but not necessarily the key information.

[Bedders]

14 hours ago, Grey Beema said:

Flight deck '45 film is from HMS Implacable 30th Naval Fighter Wing 801 NAS & 880 NAS.  My understanding is that Implacable joined the BPF in June 45.  

 

The Seafires of Implacable can be recognised by the Carrier letter 'N' on the tail, aircraft recognition numbers (1xx) on the fuselage and some of the are fitted with P40 tanks allegedly traded for whiskey.  

 

Indefatigable's Seafires of 24 NFW 880 NAS & 894 NAS have the Carrier letter 'S' and aircraft ID number (1xx) on the tail and if fitted, slipper tanks. 

 

I suspect all of your stills above cover Implacable's Seafires.  I cannot tell for the resupply at Leyte movie.

 

Interesting though.  I have at least two Seafire builds. Coming up..

• Seafire III NN341 possibly ‘3A’. Flown by M Crosley 07.06.44 1735 Destroyed Bf109, 15 miles SW Caen / 5m S Evrecy. 
• Seafire III LR866/S121 flown by V Lowden 15.08.45 Destroyed 2.5 A6M Zeros, Japan 

What I'm thinking is that NN341 was probably MkII Cannon but LR866 may be either?  Thoughts?

 

 

I did Lowden's Seafire a short while ago. I went for the long barrels as I reckoned LR866 was a releativley early production machine.

Justin

[Troy Smith]

Not sure if has seen this or not, but @iang  maybe able to shed some light on when and where some of the films were shot,   and if he has not seen this, I'm sure it would be of interest.

Great thread, new details for me, which is always a treat.

[JohnHaa]

Some more info about the Seafire:    http://www.armouredcarriers.com/seafire-development

 

And years ago I build a Seafire F.III , In those days there was no Seafire model kit, so I modified a 1/48 Revell Spit Mk.IIb.  

 

With regards,

 

JohnHaa

 

 

[roncl]

Hi Everyone,

 

Thanks for the outstanding information. I am learning a lot about British Carrier Operations that I never knew!

 

Regarding the installation of the long barrel Hispano cannon (Mk ll) vs the short barrel Hispano (Mk V) in the Seafire wing, the front mounting for the two cannons was noticeably different. As mentioned by Skyhawk in Post #31 and Ewen in Post # 39, based on the angle of the picture or video, it can be difficult to determine the length of the cannon fairing. However, as mentioned by Tomas in Post #32, the different front mountings for the two cannons clearly identifies (in most cases) which cannon had been installed.

 

The Mk ll cannon extended 36.25 inches from the front of the wing. The front mounting for the cannon was 13.89 inches long, while the fairing for the cannon barrel was 20.32 inches long. The actual barrel extended another 2.04 inches  beyond the end of the fairing. These measurements are from the outstanding book “Spitfire IX and XVI: Engineered” by Paul Monforton. The pictures, drawings and level of detail are amazing. I strongly recommend it.

 

The Mk V cannon extended 24.25 inches (12 inches shorter) from the front of the wing, and the front mounting for the Mk V cannon was much shorter (I don’t have exact measurements but it is probably in the order of 3.5 - 4.5 inches or maybe a bit longer). The recoil spring was shorter and was located right up against the front mounting, and the barrel extended the rest of the distance. The Mk ll cannon, by comparison, had a recoil spring that was significantly longer and can be seen extending further down the barrel compared to the Mk V.

 

I am attaching some pictures that show the cannon barrel of the Mk ll cannon with the barrel fairing removed.  You can clearly see that the front mounting for the Mk ll cannon and the recoil spring is significantly longer.  Pictures showing Seafires with the cannon fairing for the Mk ll cannon removed are tougher to find, and I have included a picture of a Mk IX Spitfire with the fairing removed to show the detail.  The Mk II cannon mounting for the Spit Mk IX and the Seafire IIc and III would have been the same.  I am also attaching a couple more pictures showing the Mk V cannon with the fairing removed.

 

Despite the above differences between the cannon mountings for the Mk ll and Mk V cannons, it can still be difficult to determine which cannon is mounted on the aircraft in some pictures due to the angle of the picture or video.  However, I am quite certain that the pictures I have posted above of Seafire 129 being pushed off the deck show Mk V cannons fitted.

 

I am surprised at the number of pictures I have seen with the fairing removed from the Mk V cannon.  It seems like it might have been a fairly common practice to fly without the fairing.  It doesn't make sense to me as the fairing was designed to protect the barrel and improve aerodynamics.

 

 Seafire lll (or Seafire llc) with Mk ll cannon.  Note longer front mounting.  The cannon and fairings seemed to be damaged regularly by the barrier set up.

 

Roncl

 

 

Spitfire IX with Mk ll cannon and fairings off.

 

 

 

Mk ll cannon front mounting on Spitfire.

 

 

Mike Crosley in Seafire lll.  Mk V cannons with fairing off.

 

 

Mk ll cannon front mounting on Spitfire.

 

 

Mk V cannons on Seafire 115.  Mike Crosley?  Fairings off.

 

 

 

Seafire with Mk V cannon.  Fairing off.  

 

 

 

Seafire llc with Mk ll cannon.  Note longer front mounting and dislodged fairing.  Outboard cannon stub removed post manufacture?

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by roncl

[Tomas Enerdal]

Dear All,

In pic #6 just above, pranged 155 is seen, with Mk.V guns (short stubs) and no fairings. A clear pic of this same a/c is seen on p.110 of Seafire. From the cockpit 13 by Erik "Wincle" Brown (!)

It clearly shows serial PR240. According to Sturtivant it was delivered to 880 Sq in 6.45. The prang is not mentioned, however. Maybe it could simply be fixed with a new propeller and wingtip?

(As an aside, the first and second 5 on the starboard side have slightly different styles, should make an interesting marking on a model!)

Another aside for our 1/72 friends; I just saw at Hannants that Sword will (re-)release a five-pack with Seafires (IIc, III, early and late XV and XVII); see here

[EwenS]

PR240 155/N came off the Westland production line at the end of November 1944.

 

Looking through Sturtivant's listing for the PR*** batch produced from 11/44 I'm struck by the numbers produced from Oct 1944 that seem to have gone to the Far East as evidenced by passing through 1 PATP (Packed Aircraft Transit Pool) at Southport, RNARY Coimbatore (Southern India) or TAMY 1 (Transportable Aircraft Maintenance Yard at Archerfield Australia). Other research on Spitfires I've done suggests 3-4 months from factory door to India in packaged form + additional time for erection and supply to units. With the BPF things are further complicated by aircraft being delivered to and assembled in India then transferred to Australia between Feb-May 1945 by escort carrier. The fleet carriers also seem to have picked up some replacement aircraft from Indian stocks as they passed through, no doubt to replace damaged aircraft.

 

TAMY1 didn't start arriving in Australia until the end of March 1945, and should have started erecting aircraft (seemingly mainly Seafires and Corsairs) in April. But it consistently fell short of its targets, particularly that for Seafires until the end of the war. From April to Aug it seems to have erected monthly 0,9,0,9,9 Seafire III. 6 Aircraft Depot RAAF at Oakey was brought in to help in May but its output was also limited (9 by the end of July).  Given the numbers being shipped from the UK there must have been a fair number sitting in Australia in packing cases at the end of the war. (Edit - They only seem to show up in the records at TAMY1 when being test flown). This may help explain the relative lack of short barrelled aircraft seen in the BPF. Additional information about this can be found here:-

 

http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/MONABS/Nabsford-1.htm#.XeZM6tXgqUk

http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/MONABS/Oakey.htm#.XeZM_dXgqUk

 

Page 3 of the first link has a photo of PR311 at Archerfield. http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/MONABS/Nabsford-3.htm#.XeZNF9XgqUk This was built Dec 1944, passed through 1 PATP in April 1945 and is reported being tested at Archerfield 13-19 July 1945. It has the short cannon fairings.

 

So in conclusion, it seems Westland started fitting the Mk.V cannon in Nov 1944 at the latest. But with most of those being packed for shipping to India and Australia and as we are aware, relatively few reached front line squadrons before the end of the war

 

The Forward Aircraft Pool at Pityliu (Admiralty Is) also held an unidentified Seafire III with short barrels at some time during its brief stay on the island between 21 June and 17 Sept 1945. http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/MONABS/FAP_Album.htm#.XeZXGdXgqUk

 

For anyone who isn't aware there is a searchable database that contains much (I hesitate to say all as someone will prove me wrong!) of the information in Sturtivant and Morgan regarding individual Spitfire / Seafire airframes here https://allspitfirepilots.org/aircraft

It is searchable by Serial no, Model, Factory, Engine and notes (for example unit)

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by EwenS

[EwenS]

On 27/11/2019 at 13:15, gingerbob said:

OK chaps, back home.  I found Seafire Mod No. 207 "To introduce Mk.V cannon".  The ledger says that it pertains to the Mk.III (only version mentioned)- no, wait, somewhere else it says "Common on Mk.XV" [and presumably XVII].  The dates, as far as I can make out: LTC No 1216 24(?)/6/43; No 1633 11/7/44.  While I don't claim to understand how to interpret Mod dates, my hunch based on other examples is that the first is when it was first brought up as an idea, and the second might be when it was more like, "OK, we're ready to enact this now, or to plan to".

 

Incidentally, Mod 205 was the same first date (LTC No 1214) "To introduce one oblique and one vertical F.24 camera in Seafire L.Mk.IIC".  That mod doesn't mention Mk.III.

 

Mod 602 "To introduce Mk.V 20mm guns together with electric firing mechanism" pertains to the Mk.46, and is LTC No 2000 12/6/45.

 

Both of the gun mods are Class 4B, if anybody knows what that implies (I'd have to go digging).

 

bob

Bob

Just to pick up on the point about the cameras on the L.IIC to make it a LR.IIC, I think your interpretation of the dates is probably correct.

 

Brown states that in autumn 1943 a number of L.IIC were taken in hand for modification along the lines of the PR.XIII conversion for the RAF. The prototype for the latter flew in March 1943 with the design being signed off at the end of Sept. As for the LR.IIC Brown notes that "No records remain of the numbers of conversions, but it was probably in the region of 30 aircraft..." These went to No. 4 Naval Fighter Wing comprising 807,807 and 879 squadrons and were used through to the end of the war. As they were to be conversions of a specific model already in existence then there would be no need to mention the version on the production line at the time. The FR.III was not produced until late 1944 by which time no doubt the LR.IIC had suffered some losses.

 

The LR.IIC could only carry the 2 cameras you note as the space for the second vertical camera on the PR.XIII was above the location of the arrestor hook. Curiously though they were able to retain their cannon while the PR.XIII was reduced to machine guns only.

 

So turning to the cannon, the second date looks to me as something like production sign off. Then there will be a gap of a few months while cannon stocks filter through to the factories to be fitted on the production lines. The first production Seafire XV (SR446) was delivered from the Westland production line on 31 Aug 1944 with another 5 in October and 3 in November. The Crowood book has 2 factory style photos of SR449 dated October 1944 on the negative, clearly showing the short cannon. So we have photographic evidence of Westland having factory stocks by 21 October when SR449 was delivered.

 

Reading 31 August across to the Westland produced Seafire III would take us back to around NN316-330 then the PP & PR serials. NN199 produced in June 1944 had the long barrels.

 

Reading 21 October across to the Westland produced Seafire III takes us back to the beginning of the production of the PR serialled batch.

 

Turning to Cunliffe Owen production, I've a photo of NN460 on Indefatigable dated 6 Jan 1945. This aircraft was delivered in Sept 1944 and has long cannon.