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RAF C and C1 roundels, pre VE day


Tail-Dragon
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A question for those in the know - when was the yellow ring added to the C type roundel (to make it a C1) on the upper surface of the wings? And was it added to the lower surface roundels at the same time. 

Specifically I'm interested in Spitfire Mk XIVe's (highback and bubble) prior to VE day.  The Extradecal sheet I have shows a C type on upper and lower wings, and the Airfix decals for the Spit XIVe show the C1 type in both positions. The Airfix markings are for a post VE day aircraft but I'm wondering if the would be applicable to pre VE day aircraft.

Thanks,

Colin

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The yellow ring to all roundels was added in January 1945 to all 2 TAF fighters. Aircraft outside this command retained the then standard C type over and under the wings with C1 on the fuselage.

So yes, C1 roundels were used over and under the wings before VE-Day but not on all aircraft

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29 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

Possibly not under?

 

2 TAF requested that all roundels on day fighters delivered to their units were to have a yellow edge. The Air Ministry was against this and there were several documents sent back and forth on the matter, until 2 in the end 2 TAF was allowed to carry on with these revised markings. My understanding is that even during the time it took to discuss the matter, 2 TAF introduced these, so much that in early February 1945 they communicated that all aircraft available had received the "new" markings

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c type roundels came in on upperwings  in Jan 45 in Europe,  there are photos of Avengers in the Nroth Sea and Hurricanes in the Adriatic with them.

 

The C1 upperwings are a 2nd TAF speciality,  caused confusion, for example upper wings being redone fuselage dimension sizes, 36 inch, seen on Typhoons.

and some Spitfires

14741556150_b31bda0f1b_b.jpgSpitfire PR mk. XI  , 1945. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

25000713876_22f61bfda1_b.jpgSpitfirePR Mk. XI, 1944. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

 

  there is film of Tempests with one plane with upperwings showing  a standard 54 inch on one wing and 36 inch on the other.

 

C1 underwing

12121674534_7966982895_b.jpgSpitfire Mk.XVI     1945. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

3269412203_964be18600_b.jpgSpitfire P R Mk. XI by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

C1 underwings did occur before :whistle:

5563260675_8270a31b7f_b.jpgSpitfire in Malta 15 May 1943. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

Spitfire in Malta 15 May 1943.

Air Vice-Marshall Keith Park about to taxi out in his personal Spitfire V to mark the opening of Malta's new airstrip in Safi.

 

But I digress....

 

@Chris Thomas  as one of the authors of books on the 2nd TAF will know more,  volume 4 of the series is about the camouflage and markings, but min not too hand.

 

Note the last page of the Duciumus Guide

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings/01-Supermarine-Spitfire

Supermarine%20Spitfire%20Camo%20&%20Mark

 

No size was stipulated and there was some confusion!

 

so @Tail-Dragon  plenty of room for confusion and variations....

 

HTH

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After posting this, I continued with some additional research and found the following, which reinforces the info that Giorgio N and Troy Smith were kind enough to give. Apparently the order, given Jan 02, 1945, was that 2nd Tactical airforce were to overpaint the sky spinners with black, and the sky fuselage band with adjacent camo colors. At the same time, to add the yellow (and white, for the topside) rings to create C1 roundels on both wing surfaces.  This was done at the field level as well as the M.U. level. For the most part (and reinforced by photo's) the FR XIVe bubbletops, and the F XIVe highbacks retained the modified 56" upper roundels, while, at the M.U. level,  some  of the FR XIVe highbacks had the upper roundels overpainted and with camo and 36" c1 roundels added. There's also photo's of an FR XIVe with a 56" roundel on the left wing, and a 36" on the right! (a lot of this info comes from Aviaeology's recon Spitfire decal sheet). 

Confusion abounds! This actually contradicts what is shown on Xtradecals sheet 48-130, which shows F XIVe AE*B NH703 (2nd Tac. A.F.) with the black spinner and overpainted fuselage band, but with C type roundels upper and lower (given as April, 1945 - 3 months after the change was to take place). Based on what has been given, and what I have found (photo wise) I'm going to go with 56" C1 roundels on both the F XIVe highback, and the FR XIVe bubbletop.

 

Thanks Giorgio N and Troy Smith for your assistance!

Colin

Edited by Tail-Dragon
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Troy,

 

Wow- great photos! Thanks for sharing. BTW, did AVM Park's Spitfire have his initials instead of fuselage codes? If so, were they K-o-P?  Is the serial known? I'm thinking that would be a very neat project and a great tribute model of an outstanding  airman and commander's mount. It would make a nice companion to his Hurricane!

Mike

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2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

C1 underwings did occur before :whistle:

5563260675_8270a31b7f_b.jpgSpitfire in Malta 15 May 1943. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

Spitfire in Malta 15 May 1943.

Air Vice-Marshall Keith Park about to taxi out in his personal Spitfire V to mark the opening of Malta's new airstrip in Safi.

 

But I digress...

Digressing further, also seen on some Kittyhawks eg Kittyhawk IA FR440 GA-V of 112 Squadron, Zuara Landing Ground, Tunisia, May 1943, as shown in colour photo on the cover of Robin Brown's Shark Squadron.  NB same month as the Park photo: an unrecorded (and short-lived?) local instruction?

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3 hours ago, 72modeler said:

BTW, did AVM Park's Spitfire have his initials instead of fuselage codes? If so, were they K-o-P?  Is the serial known?

Don't know. His Hurricanes were codes OK-1, he had one in the BoB, and one on Malta, OK-2,  usually described a IIc but the only photo does not seem to show cannon bulges.

This has been discussed here, but not finding the thread(s) and need to shut down now

 

The Spitfire got discussed here BTW

 

HTH

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  • 1 year later...
On 11/19/2019 at 3:43 AM, Giorgio N said:

The yellow ring to all roundels was added in January 1945 to all 2 TAF fighters. Aircraft outside this command retained the then standard C type over and under the wings with C1 on the fuselage.

So yes, C1 roundels were used over and under the wings before VE-Day but not on all aircraft

When did the type C upper wing roundels become standard?

Thanks, Pip

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I believe this was January 1st (or , as above, 2nd.  At the time there was some correspondence between 2TAF and the Air Ministry concerning the addition of yellow rings (C1) on the uppersurface of the wing, but 2TAF decided to go their own way whilst the rest of the RAF did as they were told.

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