Valiant colour question

[CliffB]

Hi guys. I'm just finishing Valiant WZ 366 as she was when she dropped Britain's first operational atomic bomb on 11th October 1956.

Unfortunately, I've just realised that I don't know what colour she was on that day!

I'm assuming white, but there are some indications that she may still have been silver.

Can anyone help me with this please?

Many thanks

Cliff

[bentwaters81tfw]

Looks like silver.

https://www.thisdayinaviation.com/tag/vickers-valiant-b-1/

 

Video footage here. First frames defo silver.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1101039843360004/

[CliffB]

1 hour ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

Looks like silver.

https://www.thisdayinaviation.com/tag/vickers-valiant-b-1/

 

Video footage here. First frames defo silver.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1101039843360004/

Many thanks for this.  Much appreciated.  I had thought that white was introduced mid '56 (I can't remember why I think this), but I suppose it's possible that the change was made later as a result of data collected from the plane during the test drop.

 

The next question then is NMF or silver paint?  It looks like paint to me - particularly in the crew photos in the first link?

 

Cheers

Cliff

[stever219]

All “silver” Valiants in RAF service were painted High Speed Silver: the only natural metal Valiants were the prototypes WB210 and ‘215.

[CliffB]

2 hours ago, stever219 said:

All “silver” Valiants in RAF service were painted High Speed Silver: the only natural metal Valiants were the prototypes WB210 and ‘215.

Thanks Steve.  That's easy then .

Cheers

Cliff

[Dave Fleming]

One of the things tested on the early nuclear tests was white as a protective paint for aircraft, as well as their suceptibility to blast damage - this was done using redundant Supermarine Swifts

Edited November 15, 2019 by Dave Fleming

[CliffB]

1 hour ago, Dave Fleming said:

One of the things tested on the early nuclear tests was white as a protective paint for aircraft, as well as their suceptibility to blast damage - this was done using redundant Supermarine Swifts

Thanks Dave.  That's really interesting and all news to me.

 

Cheers

Cliff

[fatalbert]

On 11/15/2019 at 2:13 PM, Dave Fleming said:

One of the things tested on the early nuclear tests was white as a protective paint for aircraft, as well as their suceptibility to blast damage - this was done using redundant Supermarine Swifts

Poor swifts🙁

[EwenS]

On 15/11/2019 at 11:00, CliffB said:

Many thanks for this.  Much appreciated.  I had thought that white was introduced mid '56 (I can't remember why I think this), but I suppose it's possible that the change was made later as a result of data collected from the plane during the test drop.

 

The next question then is NMF or silver paint?  It looks like paint to me - particularly in the crew photos in the first link?

 

Cheers

Cliff

The Crowood book "V-Bombers" notes that when XD818 (the one that dropped Britain's first H-bomb during Operation Grapple in May 1957) "...arrived at Wittering in the third week of November [1956], it was resplendent in the overall anti-flash gloss white finish..." It was one of 8 specially modified aircraft, including the white anti-flash paint job, delivered to 49 squadron for use in the Grapple tests. XD818, XD822, XD823 and XD824 all went out for the first series of tests in May 1957.

 

The fifth production Victor XA921 is noted as the first Victor in anti-flash white and it first flew on 12 June 1957. The preceding aircraft, XA920 first flew in June 1956. 83 squadron reformed on Vulcans in May 1957 and by the end of Sept 1957 it had 10 aircraft in anti-flash white. There is a photo purporting to be taken at Waddington in June 1957 with 2 silver and 1 white Vulcan.

[CliffB]

5 hours ago, EwenS said:

The Crowood book "V-Bombers" notes that when XD818 (the one that dropped Britain's first H-bomb during Operation Grapple in May 1957) "...arrived at Wittering in the third week of November [1956], it was resplendent in the overall anti-flash gloss white finish..." It was one of 8 specially modified aircraft, including the white anti-flash paint job, delivered to 49 squadron for use in the Grapple tests. XD818, XD822, XD823 and XD824 all went out for the first series of tests in May 1957.

 

The fifth production Victor XA921 is noted as the first Victor in anti-flash white and it first flew on 12 June 1957. The preceding aircraft, XA920 first flew in June 1956. 83 squadron reformed on Vulcans in May 1957 and by the end of Sept 1957 it had 10 aircraft in anti-flash white. There is a photo purporting to be taken at Waddington in June 1957 with 2 silver and 1 white Vulcan.

Thanks Ewen, that's much appreciated.

It's also good to see that the internet doesn't have all the answers!

 

Cliff

[JPuente54]

I'm curious; is the "Blue Danube" being dropped an actual one(for the nuclear test) or a "weighted dummy" to ensure that the bomb shackles, bay size, etc. could hold the weapon in tests before any real use(tests, actual war, etc.) of the aircraft?

[NorthBayKid]

On 11/15/2019 at 4:35 AM, stever219 said:

All “silver” Valiants in RAF service were painted High Speed Silver: the only natural metal Valiants were the prototypes WB210 and ‘215.

 

I would agree that that is the conventional wisdom, but the Valiant in that photo certainly looks like bright shiny metal to me.  Unless its High Speed Silver paint had been very highly polished, the sun glinting off it sure makes it look like shiny metal.

[Michou]

13 hours ago, JPuente54 said:

I'm curious; is the "Blue Danube" being dropped an actual one(for the nuclear test) or a "weighted dummy" to ensure that the bomb shackles, bay size, etc. could hold the weapon in tests before any real use(tests, actual war, etc.) of the aircraft?

I am quite certain that the photo shows a dummy Blue Danube in a test at the Orfordness bombing range.  No aircraft flew beside WZ366 during the live drop.  The other aircraft modified for the atomic bomb tests was WZ367 which flew 15 minutes behind 366 to monitor and record the explosion.  The Pathé film of the event shows WZ367 taking off but gives the impression that you are looking at the Valiant which actually dropped the bomb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NLEOxYJvzI

Mike

[stever219]

9 hours ago, NorthBayKid said:

 

I would agree that that is the conventional wisdom, but the Valiant in that photo certainly looks like bright shiny metal to me.  Unless its High Speed Silver paint had been very highly polished, the sun glinting off it sure makes it look like shiny metal.

I’ve looked again at the first image in post 2 and I’m beyond reasonable doubt that that is WB215, the second prototype.  She has the original shallow bomb-aimer’s blister only applicable to the first few aircraft, but has the later intake lip shape of all Valiants except WB210.  What clinches it is that her fin flash is swept and follows the line of the rudder leading edge: production Valiants had a rectangular flash painted slightly further forward.  It would help if her serial number was clearly visible but the reflections from the skin coupled with poor image quality (on my screen at least) have kyboshed that one.

 

As for the footage in that video I can’t get a good enough look but it could indeed be silver, but is it the actual aeroplane used for the test or just a handy clip used by the film producer for illustrative purposes?

[NorthBayKid]

Do we even know for certain that the munition being dropped in that photo is the live bomb, or could it be another airplane entirely, dropping an aerodynamic shape for proving purposes?  The actual event couldn't possibly have been the first time that size and shape (and weight) of the real thing was dropped from a Valiant.  

[stever219]

33 minutes ago, NorthBayKid said:

Do we even know for certain that the munition being dropped in that photo is the live bomb, or could it be another airplane entirely, dropping an aerodynamic shape for proving purposes?  The actual event couldn't possibly have been the first time that size and shape (and weight) of the real thing was dropped from a Valiant.  

Assuming that I’m right and that that is ‘215 the object she’s just dropped is a “shape”, which could be anything from a totally inert, correctly ballasted aerodynamic test body up to a fully instrumented and equipped, but obviously sans warhead, systems test vehicle for arming, fusing and detonator tests.  There’s a similar photo somewhere of WP223 of 90 Squadron in anti-flash white but with full colour national and squadron markings also having just let go a Blue Danube “shape” and I believe that she never dropped a live weapon either.

 

Years of development and testing, including dropping the weapons, went into these weapons before the live drops took place.  The last thing anyone wanted (apart from having to drop them for real) was for the bomb to get trapped in the airflow around the bomb bay of the carrier aircraft (hence the deflector plates on the Victor) and either collide with it or fall away late and/or off track, or to fall short of or beyond the target due to worse or better aerodynamic performance or simply not to go off when required.

Edited November 25, 2019 by stever219

[Procopius]

29 minutes ago, stever219 said:

 to fall short of or beyond the target 

Imagine the ignominy of missing with a thermonuclear weapon.

[stever219]

I suppose dropping short might be a worry to the crews as they’d be closer to the bang, even if running away bravely at full bore.  As Tesco say “every little helps”.

[EwenS]

1 hour ago, Procopius said:

Imagine the ignominy of missing with a thermonuclear weapon.

Well the bomb used for the Crossroads A airdrop in 1946 was aimed at the battleship Nevada that had been painted bright red and white for the occasion. It exploded some 700 yards west of its intended target and upset a lot of the science that had been planned around the proper aiming point. Nevada herself survived the blast.

[CliffB]

It's nice to see that my initial question has led to such an interesting discussion.

Just to show that your advice bore fruit, here's my rescued/restored FROG Valiant as WZ366.  Not an accurate representation, I know - more a piece of 50s nostalgia .

 

 

 

Cheers

Cliff

 

[71chally]

Cracking work Cliff!

[JPuente54]

Thanks for answering my question about the photo of the Valiant dropping a "Blue Danube". I figured that it was likely a test dummy; but, in a B&W photo the color(s) used to show a non-working test unit can't be seen or determined by me.

Joe