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F-7 camera sets


expositor

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Having Ginter's and Kinzey's respective works on the PB4Y and B-24, am confused with their different descriptions of its camera suite.  The one photo of a camera in its mount in Ginter doesn' t match his description.  So, how would an F-7 variant's bomb bay camera apertures be represented?  It looks like there's only room for one camera shooting through the roll up doors on each side of the bomb bay cat walk(?) but a drawing in Kinzey shows two side by side, one pointing outward, the other down in the one door.  Confounding, no?

Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks!

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So, how would an F-7 variant's bomb bay camera apertures be represented? 

This is the way Hasegawa has the camera windows on their recon B-24 kit. . I am not sure this is what you are looking for but I hope it helps

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Firstly, I think it highly unlikely that the USN PB4Y-1 camera installations matched those of the USAAF F-7 coming as they did from separate services.

 

I have a copy of Lloyd’s “Liberator - America’s Global Bomber” which contains the following information re the F-7 variants.

 

F-7A - trimetrogen camera in nose and 2 single vertical cameras in the forward end of the aft bomb bay.

F-7B - all cameras in bomb bay.

Later another camera was added, mounted to a radar screen repeater in the camera bay.

All bomb bay eqpt. was deleted and fuel tanks installed in the forward bomb bay. “The aft bomb bay was sealed and an upholstered crew compartment, constructed on a plywood floor was added for the photo technicians. The cabin was insulated and Southwind gasoline heaters were installed.....A table was installed for changing film in the magazines....Liberators employed in the photo-reconnaissance role by the Navy and Marine Corps had large cameras mounted in the waist which were manually operated by Navy photographers.”

 

There are a couple of photos of the interior of the converted aft bomb bay of the F-7B. Looking aft there were 2 vertical cameras each side of a central passageway, then space for 2 operators and then 2 film racks in the aft corners against the bulkhead. But I’m not clear just how far forward that forward bulkhead was fitted. But where was the trimetrogen camera?

 

So in the above diagram the 3 camera windows in the nose match with the photos of various F-7As in the book.

 

More difficult to determine are the camera windows in the aft bomb bay as very few photos show them. There is one of an F-7B 44-42026 of 20th Combat Mapping Squadron around May 1945 which shows the 2 side looking camera windows that appear in the above diagram.

 

But having said all that I’m having difficulty relating the stated layout to the Liberator’s interior and the aft compartment window arrangement.

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19 hours ago, pat d said:

So, how would an F-7 variant's bomb bay camera apertures be represented? 

This is the way Hasegawa has the camera windows on their recon B-24 kit. . I am not sure this is what you are looking for but I hope it helps

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42-64053 as illustrated was a B-24J-1-CF and was one of the very early conversions to an F-7A. All the serials, and some tech details, are listed here http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b24_28.html

A lot of these aircraft carried exotic nose art and the "Haze" paint scheme, which was often stripped late in the war, so there are photos of the same aircraft in both schemes.

 

Looking at those F-7B camera compartment photos again, the only way I can make sense of them is that the camera compartment was created through a combination of the aft bomb bay and the compartment immediately aft of that, containing the ball turret which seems also to have been deleted. In addition the floor above the aft bomb bay (which created a compartment for oxygen bottles etc) also seems to have been removed. It is the only way to generate the height that their seems to be above those bomb bay windows. That kind of extensive modification was also carried out to the various electronic snooper "ferret" aircraft in the Pacific.

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Thanks gents for contributing.  Pat, that scan was helpfull and what I imagined as Kinzey only provided a side view with a dark line parallel to the side aperture indicating another squarish window underneath.  Pictures I've seen online and in those books only show one camera against the bomb bay door aimed straight down seemingly to sight through the 'side' window, with insufficient room for another camera and its support frame aiming through the straight down window next to the catwalk.  Ewen, I did see a photo online of the modified cabin, and it only shows the one camera.  If there were two cameras next to each other, servicing in flight would be difficult to say the least. 

Really, I find the Ginter book disappointing as I thought they were as much for the modeler as for the aviation buff...most of whom are modellers anyway.  Ginter also claimed a trimetrogon set in the bomb bay.  How?  The nose yes, but elsewhere parallel to line of flight?  What am I missing?

As for the cameras, Ginter lists both K (army) and F (navy) models as being installed in the PB4Y recon planes.

Regarding paint, the USN/MC F-7 type planes appear to largely be in OD/NG, but I could be wrong about that. I do though like sea birds in land plumage....

Thanks!!!

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I came across these photos on the net of Liberator camera mounts.

 

The first, taken looking forward, shows a camera mounted over the rear entrance hatch (visible on the rhs with the scanning windows set low behind it. Beyond the bullkhead, forward of the camera, you can see the panels covering the waist gun mounts swung up and out of the way).

https://s262.photobucket.com/user/Duggy009/media/F-7/F-7%20camera-install.jpg.html

The existence of the scanning windows suggests a B-24 model prior to the B-24J-160

 

The second is the one published in Lloyd's book, only a lot clearer as it has not been overexposed. Lloyd has this as the interior of an F-7B but I'm not so sure. On reflection there may only be one large camera mounted port side (Lloyd says this was taken looking aft). I'm not sure what is on the starboard side but there is clearly room for a camera on the starboard side as evidenced by the 2 crew members and the passage between them.

https://s262.photobucket.com/user/Duggy009/media/F-7/Aerial%20cameraman%20in%20the%20camera%20bay%20of%20an%20F-7%20photo%20reconnaissance%20plane%20start%20their%20cameras%20when%20their%20target%20is%20reached.%20The%20target%20Leyte%20Philippine%20Islands.%20The%20camera%20shown%20in%20this%20.jpg.html

 

Have you had a look at the website for the 20th Combat Mapping Squadron? http://varney.yolasite.com/xxrs.php#cameras It describes the F-7A camera set up as follows:-

 

"In the navigator/bombardier area:

Windows and mounts for a tri-camera arrangement of one vertical and two oblique mapping cameras (this setup was called a trimetrogon, or a trimet, as it used three cameras, each with Bausch & Lomb's Metrogon lens)

A modified bombardier's panel, serving as a local control point for the trimetrogon cameras

An intervalometer to simultaneously trigger the trimetrogon shutters at a dialed-in interval

In the forward bomb bay:

Auxiliary fuel tanks, port and starboard, for increased range

Bomb bay lights

Aft bomb bay converted to camera bay:

Bomb racks removed

Bomb bay doors fixed shut

Level floor installed

Windows and mounts for cameras at a vertical station (starboard) and a split vertical station (port) in the forward end of the bay

Aerial photographer's viewfinder and chair aft of the starboard camera station

Main camera control panel to the right of the photographer's seat

Intervalometers for the two camera bay stations

A work table and racks for camera magazines and film rolls in the aft corners of the bay

Camera vacuum circuit, bay heaters, overhead lighting, and intercomm connections

In side views, F-7A's can be identified by the oblique camera windows below the navigator compartment side windows."

 

Later it notes that the crews of both variants contained a ball turret gunner, so the camera compartment must have been wholly within the aft bomb bay. If the F-7A then had cameras at the forward end as described then there must be other windows under the belly of the aircraft that we have not yet seen. It also means that the F-7A did not have those windows at the aft end of the bomb bay shown in the diagram above.

 

The installation in the F-7B is described thus:-

 

"In these, the three nose-mounted cameras of the F-7A were relocated to the aft end of the camera bay, thus consolidating all the camera equipment in one space.

In side views, F-7B's can be identified by the oblique camera windows near the rear edge of the aft bomb bay doors, one each side--and no camera windows in the nose." And presumeably a third window in the belly for the third camera of the group.

 

So those windows at the aft end of the aft bomb bay seem to relate to the F-7B only, which begins to make a bit more sense of the layout.

Just to complicate things further the 20th CMS got 5 F-7B with AN/APS-15 radar in place of the ball turret in April / May 1945 and 4 "ferrets".

 

The second photo above raises more questions than it answers. Why for example are there 2 crew in the bomb bay? Only 1 photographer was carried by the 20th CMS. What camera are we seeing? It should be a split vertical according to the 20th CMS, but is it?

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There is a rather good book by Col Roy M Stanley USAF called World War II Photo Intelligence (Sidgwick & Jackson, 1982, but published in the US in 1981 by "Charles Scribner's Sons").  It covers the aircraft, cameras, techniques, processing, etc, etc for each of the major combatant nations.  Here are some bits relating to the F-7 and PB4Y-1P variants.  I claim no Liberator expertise so this is just quoted for you to make what you will of:

 

(p.90) "...One answer [to the requirement for an extremely long-range collector] was the Consolidated B-24, which could carry up to 11 cameras at a time.  This aircraft became the F-7.  It could carry three area-coverage fans (6-inch, 24-inch and 40 inch lenses), a single vertical camera and a "tracker" for plotting locations.  In the F-7A (B-24J) one camera fan was just behind the nose and another was in the bomb bay.  As with other bomber conversions, this recce bird retained its armament - a necessity for a relatively slow aircraft on long Pacific photo missions. …. Less than 100 B-24s were modified for photo work but they saw service all over the world as the F-7, becoming the US army's main combat mapping aircraft in the Pacific."  This is illustrated by a photo of F-7 264245 in OD/NG (photo 4-13).  Trimetrogon apertures visible in nose.  The bomb bay fit is less clear because only about half of the underside is visible.  There appears to be a cluster of ports in about the forward third of the after bomb-bay doors.  First comes a large dark area, which could be a large circular port (presumably mirrored on the other side) or maybe a single oval or rectangular port extending across the underside.  Behind that is a small round aperture, again presumably mirrored on the other side.  The ventral turret is just visible retracted in its well.

 

P.100 notes the use of the PV-1 Ventura and PB4Y-1P by the USN for photo recce: the reader is referred to photos of the equivalent aircraft in USAAF service (B-34 Ventura and F-7), implying (or inviting us to infer) that they were similar if not identical.  P.106 notes that VD-1, VD-3 and VD-4 were equipped solely with PB4Y-1P and VD-3 with PB4Y-1Ps and F6Fs.  Photo 5-39 (p.158): interior view of the nose K-17 trimet installation in an F-7.

 

Okay, okay, I'm getting to the good bit.

 

Photos 5-46 to 5-53 (pp.162-4) are a series of shots illustrating the camera installation in the PB4Y-1P.

 

Photo 5-46: 2 crewmen aiming a F.56 camera with 40" lens through the port beam hatch of a PB4Y-1.  VD-1, Guadalcanal, 1943.

Photo 5-48; manual photo of a F.56 camera.

Photo 5-49: photo of a F.56 camera with 40" lens installed vertically in a "VD-1 Photo Liberator, Guadalcanal, Nov 1943".  It's not easy (at least for me) to work out where it is installed but it's a very cluttered environment and the large round aperture below it looks suspiciously like the ball turret aperture.

Photo 5-50: photo of the "camera lineup in a Photo Liberator, Guadalcanal, 1943".  There are at least 3 cameras aligned along the fuselage axis, with each individual camera also mounted along the axis.  Not clear whether we are looking forward or aft.  A slatted walkway is visible to the left and a lot of cabling against the side wall to the right.  It strikes me as most probable that there is a similar walkway on the other side of the cameras and that they are centrally mounted.  The caption notes that "Robinson mounts dampened aircraft vibration and permitted raising or lowering a camera depending on its focal length to keep business end close to camera ports".  

Photo 5-52; Photo Liberator camera bay from the outside.  To my eyes it shows a clean, flat-bottomed rectangular camera box extending the full length and most of the width of the after bomb bay with 4 large holes mounted axially along it (in line with the interior view at 5-50).  The caption notes that "on takeoff bomb bay doors were rotated down and closed to protect open camera ports from fouling.  Guadalcanal, November 1943".

Photo 5-53: "PB4Y-1 camera bay mock-up in the Navy Photo School"  Again 4 large ports.  Mounted above them are F.56 40" lens, K-17 12" lens, K-17 24" lens and K-17 6" lens (NB this is a school and a training photo: the camera fit may not be at all representative of an operational fit).  The camera ports are significantly larger than (roughly twice) the diameter of the largest lens.

 

I find it hard to reconcile the bomb bay camera port layout of F-7A 264245 (unclear as it is from the photo) with that shown for the VD-1 PB4Y-1Ps.  And the fact that the bomb bay doors closed to protect the lenses makes it possible that the bomb bay camera ports were not even visible on the ground, Guam being a nasty dusty sort of place.

 

Hope this helps someone.

Edited by Seahawk
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BExpositor said,

"Regarding paint, the USN/MC F-7 type planes appear to largely be in OD/NG, but I could be wrong about that. I do though like sea birds in land plumage.... "

 

USAAF F-7s were known to be painted in Synthetic Haze composed of 2 colours.  The base coat was called Sky Base Blue and another color called Flight Blue was sprayed on the undersurfaces. IIRC the application was NOT similar to the application of Photo Recon P-38 with a counter shading and stripped finish , but applied in a matter similar to the OD.NG application- a fairly solid application, no mottling. Dana Bell has done quite a bit of re-discovery work on these finishes,

Compare the F-7 photo to the P-38 color application.

HTH, Pat D

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Edited by pat d
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Having looked at the camera arrangements in the USAAF F-7 version of the B-24, I’ve been back to Ginter’s book, and the rest of my library, to look at the camera arrangements in the USN PB4Y-1 version of the B-24.

 

I’ve now concluded that the USN version bore little relationship to the USAAF version, which probably explains the confusion we all seem to be having in analysing what is in the various photos.

 

The first photo in my last post I now believe relates to the USN version (maybe a uniform expert could tell us if the 2 crewmen are wearing USAAF or USN uniforms). On p61 of Ginter’s book are 2 photos of the tunnel gun installation on early (non-ball turret) PB4Y-1s. This gun was fitted in the rear entrance hatch. Of interest to us is that immediately to the rear of that hatch is an item labelled “Camera Mount” in one photo. On p62 he notes this mount “…is swung forward into position over the open rear entry hatch and a chosen camera is fitted to it for the mission in hand.” Given the circular hole in the side of this mount facing the camera, I would guess that this is lying on its side along the length of the aft fuselage and would be hinged at its lower edge. When needed it would be raised to the vertical over the hatch, pivoting about that lower edge hinge.

 

Then we come to Ginter’s description of the camera installation in a PB4Y-1P photo plane. On page 93 dealing with VD-1 he notes “…The forward bomb bay carried two 395 gallon ferry tanks for extended range and the after bomb bay was modified to carry cameras. If bombs were needed the bomb bay fuel tanks could be removed.” So that suggests that the camera mountings were more permanent fittings than the fuel tanks, which makes sense in terms of providing a fixed and stable platform to avoid camera shudder when in use.

 

On pages 62-64 Ginter has various photos of cameras and associated eqpt in situ.  He notes “In addition to the entrance hatch camera location, the bomb bay from stations 4.0 to 6.0 were modified to accommodate seven cameras and necessary camera operating equipment. There were provisions for three tri-metrogon cameras in the aft left-hand bomb bay and for four vertical cameras in the aft right-hand bomb bay.” He then goes on to describe the various cameras used. Each camera is firmly secured in a metal frame with control equipment on the fuselage walls. There is some kind of “floor” structure through which the cameras protrude with heating sleeves that fit closely around the lenses.

Of most interest to me is the photo on page 63 of a K-17 twenty-four inch camera. The camera itself appears to be fitted between the fuselage side and the aft bomb racks. I’ve also found a photo in Carey’s “Above an Angry Sea” p15 of a VD-1 camera operator making adjustments to a camera in flight. On the very right of the photo appears to be this same structure. Above his head is the roof of the bomb bay / floor of the command deck.

 

Then we come to the question of camera windows in the PB4Y-1P bomb bay doors. The answer I believe is that there were none. On a photo run the aircraft simply opened up its bomb doors. The evidence for this? P92 of Ginter’s book has a picture of a VD-1 PB4Y-1 on Guadalcanal in 1943 with the bomb doors (in both bomb bays) open and personnel loading 2 very large cameras into the aft bomb bay. As you look through the pages on the various VD squadrons, the thing that suddenly struck me is that PB4Y-1Ps on the ground generally have their bomb doors open in both the fore and aft bomb bays. It is easily identified as the underside colour suddenly extends in nice rectangular areas up under the wing. So far as I can see there are no camera windows in these.

 

Turning to Seawolf’s post, in relation to the F-7 it may be that 30-40 years of research on the F-7/F-7A/F-7B has yielded more information. For me 11 cameras is too many. That book mentions the existence of 3 camera “fans” (tri-metrogon? i.e. 9 cameras) then notes the positions of 2. Those plus 2 other camera positions gets you to 11 in total. But I think this may conflate the layouts of the F-7A and F-7B versions I’ve noted in my last post. As for F-7 numbers, the figures I have exceed 100 airframes. Lloyd has 182 or 192 while Joe Baugher as serials for 215. According to the latter some B-24J became F-7A and some F-7B. Camera ports in the forward third of the aft bomb bay now begins to make some sense in the context of the F-7.

 

As for Seawolf’s information on the PB4Y-1P, then generally it seems to accord with my own. Overall my impression is that the USAAF carried out a lot more work to create the F-7 than the USN did to create the PB4Y-1P.

 

I still have a lot of questions however. In the USAAF F-7 versions, how were the cameras loaded / removed from the aircraft if the bomb bay doors were sealed? The USN PB4Y-1 seems a lot easier for that, suggesting that the bomb bay was perhaps not floored throughout or had hatches in it (perhaps in the aft port side of the aft bomb bay where there might be a space not taken up with a camera – and which is where those VD-1 personnel were working. Putting the tri-metrogon cameras nearer the aircraft CG would make sense). Just what are the detailed layouts of the F-7 versions and exactly where are the “missing” camera windows?

 

Finally, re Seawolf’s comments about the PV-1 Ventura, I’m not aware of a dedicated photo version. However I am aware that in the Pacific aircraft in the VPB squadrons did carry out photo-recce work, for which purpose they carried an extra crewman dedicated to operating the cameras during those photo missions. Squadron/Signal 48 makes reference to “high and low oblique and vertical cameras” but no details of where they were fitted.

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3 hours ago, EwenS said:

Then we come to Ginter’s description of the camera installation in a PB4Y-1P photo plane. On page 93 dealing with VD-1 he notes “…The forward bomb bay carried two 395 gallon ferry tanks for extended range and the after bomb bay was modified to carry cameras. If bombs were needed the bomb bay fuel tanks could be removed.” So that suggests that the camera mountings were more permanent fittings than the fuel tanks, which makes sense in terms of providing a fixed and stable platform to avoid camera shudder when in use. 

On pages 62-64 Ginter has various photos of cameras and associated eqpt in situ.  He notes “In addition to the entrance hatch camera location, the bomb bay from stations 4.0 to 6.0 were modified to accommodate seven cameras and necessary camera operating equipment. There were provisions for three tri-metrogon cameras in the aft left-hand bomb bay and for four vertical cameras in the aft right-hand bomb bay.” He then goes on to describe the various cameras used. Each camera is firmly secured in a metal frame with control equipment on the fuselage walls. There is some kind of “floor” structure through which the cameras protrude with heating sleeves that fit closely around the lenses.

 

It occurs to me that the standard walkway in a B-24 bomb bay runs down the centre and that the walkway in Stanley's photo 5-50 looks curiously like one.  In that case, according to Ginter, the photo shows the installation for 4 vertical cameras in the aft right hand bomb bay and there is no walkway between the cameras and the far fuselage wall (I couldn't see one either).  The three cameras visible in 5-50 are flanked by what look like railings until you notice the shiny pistons on the uprights: I take it these are the Robinson mounts for raising and lowering cameras to the required position.

 

3 hours ago, EwenS said:

Then we come to the question of camera windows in the PB4Y-1P bomb bay doors. The answer I believe is that there were none. On a photo run the aircraft simply opened up its bomb doors. The evidence for this? P92 of Ginter’s book has a picture of a VD-1 PB4Y-1 on Guadalcanal in 1943 with the bomb doors (in both bomb bays) open and personnel loading 2 very large cameras into the aft bomb bay. As you look through the pages on the various VD squadrons, the thing that suddenly struck me is that PB4Y-1Ps on the ground generally have their bomb doors open in both the fore and aft bomb bays. It is easily identified as the underside colour suddenly extends in nice rectangular areas up under the wing. So far as I can see there are no camera windows in these.

That was certainly the message I took from Stanley's caption to photo 5-52 about closing the bomb doors to protect the lenses.  And the rectangular "tray" in 5-52 is what you saw from the outside when the door were open.   I can't detect any indications of the trimetrogon installation in 5-52: I'm not saying it's not there, just that it's not visible from the angle the photo is taken from.

 

3 hours ago, EwenS said:

 For me 11 cameras is too many.

Completely agree.  There must surely come a point where every necessary lens/focal length permutation is covered and the weight is better used to carry more film for the cameras you do have rather than indulge in camera overkill.  Though if I'd flown hundreds of miles in a vulnerable aircraft and got shot at, I might have been a trifle miffed to be told the camera wasn't working.

 

3 hours ago, EwenS said:

I still have a lot of questions however. In the USAAF F-7 versions, how were the cameras loaded / removed from the aircraft if the bomb bay doors were sealed? The USN PB4Y-1 seems a lot easier for that, suggesting that the bomb bay was perhaps not floored throughout or had hatches in it (perhaps in the aft port side of the aft bomb bay where there might be a space not taken up with a camera – and which is where those VD-1 personnel were working.

No answers re F-7 but for the PB4Y-1 photo 5-53 (the Photo School camera bay mock-up) shows a sailor lifting a camera over the "railings"/Robinson mounts from a position which corresponds to the central slatted walkway in photo 5-50.  If the crew can obtain worthwhile results using a F.56 camera with a 40" lens out of the beam hatch (photo 5-46), I imagine it was light enough to be manhandled in and out of the normal access hatch or beam hatches.  There is no indication in the very clear photo of the underside of the camera "crate" that they could be removed that way.

 

3 hours ago, EwenS said:

Finally, re Seawolf’s comments about the PV-1 Ventura, I’m not aware of a dedicated photo version. However I am aware that in the Pacific aircraft in the VPB squadrons did carry out photo-recce work, for which purpose they carried an extra crewman dedicated to operating the cameras during those photo missions. Squadron/Signal 48 makes reference to “high and low oblique and vertical cameras” but no details of where they were fitted.

To be fair to Stanley, he does not assert that there was a dedicated PR version of the Ventura, he merely provides a photo of a type used by the USAAF and USN for PR.  Caption to photo 4-27 (USAAF section) says, "Lockheed B-34 Ventura, originally the O-56 in its visual reconnaissance role, was used extensively for noncombat reconnaissance.  Camera installation made use of the windowed bay under the belly just forward of the tail (ie the ventral gun position: my comment)."  In the USN section, he states (p.100) that "Navy aircraft that were rigged out for aerial photography in large numbers were the PV-1 (Ventura, same as in photo 4-27) and the PB4Y-1P (Liberator, same as photo 4-13).  Both of these aircraft had performance making them generally more suitable for mapping than combat missions.  In spite of this the navy used Photo Liberators as effectively as the army for intelligence collection during the middle war years."  BTW photo 4-37 is a close-up of an "F-25 camera mounted in lower gun compartment of an Avenger".  What's pictured looks like a permanent installation: wouldn't be surprised to see something similar, either permanent or ad hoc, in the ventral position of VPB Venturas.  Elsewhere, in photo 5-24, p.150, he has an interior shot of the "trimetrogon instrallation in a B-34 using K-17 cameras with 6" lenses".  It is mounted in the "rear of the windowed ventral bulge of the aircraft".  Presumably this was a mapping/survey installation.

 

Edited by Seahawk
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Just picking up on EwenS' contribution (and I'm not LIberator expert either), the website for the 20th Combat Mapping Sq includes this section, describing the differences between F-7As ad Bs. http://varney.yolasite.com/xxrs.php#aircraft

 

"...The Tri-Metrogon set-up is inadequately protected. No provision has been made to protect the vertical camera from jarring or inadvertently stepping on it while entering the nose turret. The camera as a result, has to be realigned before each flight, also the extremely crowded conditions in the nose makes changing magazines exceedingly difficult...", and "...[The] F-7A type aircraft is inadequate in its present camera arrangement...".

These shortcomings were rectified with delivery of the first of the squadron's F-7B's in July 1944. In these, the three nose-mounted cameras of the F-7A were relocated to the aft end of the camera bay, thus consolidating all the camera equipment in one space.

 

This description would seem to fully support EwenS text above. And also support the idea that the initial TriMetrogon installation did need additional under-nose windows.

 

SD

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Thanks to all who posted!  I'd seen the photo of the army F-7 with the camera over what looks like an open door over what would be the tunnel gun glazing in the PB4Y.  Ewen, thanks for pointing out Ginter page 92 with no windows or apertures in the aft bomb bay door.  I just looked past that.

So, should I then presume that the navy planes would have the trimetrogon set in the nose, and roll up the bay door for their big cameras, or have a crewman hold one out the waist gun position?  Open bay doors without a baffle like the waist guns would make an awfully drafty cabin with nowhere for that air to go, no?

I'm still confused, though as I would only model a navy B-24 I shouldn't care that much, about a trimetrogon in the bomb bay.  How can there be a camera in the center with the catwalk?  I thought that was a major structural component of the B-24, but something else I could be mistaken about.

Many thanks again to all who shared their knowledge and research!!!

Ciao,

Jim

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expositor

The PB4Y-1P had the tri-metrogon cameras in the aft bomb bay, port side, with 3 in a row forward to aft as noted in previous posts. So no need for a camera on the centreline of the fuselage. One would be angled down to port, one to starboard and one vertically down. For the angled ones this would mean getting them as low as possible in the fuselage to ensure a clear view out under the edges of the bomb bay to the left and the walkway to the right when looking forward. There was no requirement that they be fitted across the width of the fuselage. Other aircraft such as the F-4/5 versions of the P-38 carried them in their narrow forward fuselage arranged one behind the other in a similar manner.

 

Unlike the USAAF F-7, the USN camera technician would not, I believe, be physically in the bomb bay of a PB4Y-1P during a photo run. There does not seem to be mention of a seat for him, and it is not clear just how much flooring around the cameras there actually was. He would however be on hand to enter the bomb bay before and after photo runs when the bomb doors were closed to ensure cameras were set up properly, change film cartridges etc.

 

As for the draft, their was a bulkhead at the front and rear of the bomb bay that sealed it off from the rest of the fuselage. There were hatches in these bulkheads that allowed access to the bomb bay and the other end of the aircraft across the walkway.

 

Any hand held camera was in addition to the 8 cameras (7 in the bomb bay and 1 in the aft fuselage) already noted. Hand held cameras seem to have been used extensively in the Pacific for “action” shots, showing the effects of, usually low level, strikes on enemy shipping.

 

As I’ve noted the USAAF and USN versions seem to bear no physical relationship to each other even though they were developed in the same timeframe I.e early 1943. Each service had its own procurement chain, and the USN modified any USAAF types it acquired to suit their own needs.

 

 

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Ewen, thanks for that clear description.  I was confused by Ginter's description which led me to believe the army and navy planes had more in common than they actually did, as you have said.  After your explanation regarding the lack of an aperture in the PB4Y, I should have realized that since the navy recon planes opened the bay doors, the trimetrogon cameras would be able to be mounted longitudinally.  As for the draft, I was basing that on the cabin photo which led me to believe that the rear bulkhead was removed, again wrongly assuming a common army/navy modification.  Thanks again!

 

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