Avro 504 M and Q colours

[Adrian Hills]

I have looked at the web and my Putnam Avro book but I have yet to discover the colours of two Avro 504 passenger aircraft.

 

Avro 504 Q  G-EBJD. This aircraft was used in Spitzbergen with an interesting engine cover. The overall finish looks like silver or perhaps cream. Any thoughts ?

 

Avro 504 M, perhaps the only 504 with an enclosed canopy which was in front of its small passenger cabin, is obviously a dark colour. But what was that colour.

 

Liking odd aircraft, especially at the beginning of passenger transport I will be modelling both using the Airfix 1/72 offering and would like the main colours.

 

 

[Bandsaw Steve]

Sorry Adrian,
 

Despite my ongoing Involvement with ‘things Avro 504’ I have nothing to offer beyond best wishes. No idea at all on those two. You could -of course - do the famous Qantas Avro 504, its very well documented and I have several photos of the replica, but you obviously have those other airframes in mind. They both sound like really interesting subjects.

 

I hope this goes well for you.

 

Steve

[MilneBay]

The photo of the Avro 504M is b/w and the red trailing edge of the rudder is quite dark which indicates it's possibly orthochrome film. This suggest the airframe colour could be PC-10 rather than PC-12 - my reasoning being that PC-12 is a reddish brown so I'd expect the airframe to be the same hue as the rudder trailing edge colour if it was PC-12. Plus being an ex military aircraft in 1919 it was possibly not repainted. 

 

As for the 504Q it looks silver to me but that's all I can say.

 

Just my observations and I could be quite wrong.

 

 

[Troy Smith]

On 14/11/2019 at 23:32, Adrian Hills said:

Avro 504 Q  G-EBJD. This aircraft was used in Spitzbergen with an interesting engine cover. The overall finish looks like silver or perhaps cream. Any thoughts ?

for ease of reference, and as i had no idea what you were talking about, apart from 504's with enclosed cabins.....

 

 

 

 

On 14/11/2019 at 23:32, Adrian Hills said:

 

Avro 504 M, perhaps the only 504 with an enclosed canopy which was in front of its small passenger cabin, is obviously a dark colour. But what was that colour.

 

 

 

 

 

FWIW, with the rudder stripes, I'd guess this was either wartime PC 10 , thoiugh the rear stripe looks to match the airframe colour,  and a quick google show this to be red....

By TSRL - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=7050881

though 

By J Bar - en:Image: Qantas Replica Mascot Airport.JPG, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=1575395

but a replica....

 

 

Hmm,  perhaps @John Aero might know more,  this is the sort of odity I beleive he might be able to shed some light on?

 

[John Aero]

Silver/Aluminium dope was developed at the end of WW.1 as being the lightest paint finish and one that would protect the fabric from the effects of UV damage. I'm sure that the float Avro is Silver.  Most of the dark coloured civil aircraft of the early post war period were in PC.10 or PC.12.  My theory on this, is that there were buckets of the standard military colours going begging at the war's end with the Khaki variant camouflage colours making up the largest amount. the other basic colours readily available were the the roundel colours Red , White and Blue along with Grey and Black.

Standard production 504's were available in large numbers and very cheap. They seldom lasted long enough to even think of re-painting them.

Most of the Civil Avros were initially in PC.10 and later into the 20's some adopted a Silver finish with a few displaying the use of White fuselages or roundel Red or blue embellishments such as cowls. A few such as Surrey Flying Services were overall Red with White lettering. The Radial Mongoose and Lynx 504 variants were nearly all built with a Silver finish.

 

Real colour variations only started to be available with the growth of production light aeroplanes such as the Moth and Avian. 

 

I note that the 504.M appears to have a military serial and this suggests to me that it's a modified standard airframe and that in turn suggests a PC.10 finish.

 

John

[Adrian Hills]

Thank you all for your input. Especially to Troy for the images and to John for his comprehensive explanation. I'm now happy with silver for 504Q and PC10 for 504M. For the PC 10 I'll use the Xtracolour X22 which I have unopened in stock!

 

This all started off when I was looking up 504Qs and saw that Getty images had mislabelled their M as a Q.

 

Oh, to be an anorak!

[John Aero]

The 504M was a standard 504K modified above the top longerons. It later flew with a temporary registration as K134 and later it's permanent civil marking G-EACX was carried. It flew from June 1919 , but the registration was not renewed in 1920. An example of how short lived these aeroplanes were

 

John

 

The floats on JD would in all probability be varnished mahogany ply. 

[MilneBay]

Is that Herman Goering in the back seat? 😉

 

 

[Adrian Hills]

On 11/17/2019 at 9:26 PM, John Aero said:

The 504M was a standard 504K modified above the top longerons. It later flew with a temporary registration as K134 and later it's permanent civil marking G-EACX was carried. It flew from June 1919 , but the registration was not renewed in 1920. An example of how short lived these aeroplanes were

 

John

 

The floats on JD would in all probability be varnished mahogany ply. 

Hi John,

Thanks for that. I'll be going with Xtracolour PC10 for the M.

 

I reckon Junker F13 floats smoothed off and painted light brown might do the trick. Or perhaps darker to emulate mahogany.

 

Cheers

[John Aero]

There appears to be a flat screen front on the type M, where as the photos almost suggest it's pointed. I've been trying to work out how the pilot gets in. The normal way in a 504 is through the rear of the cabane struts where there are no cross wires, and slide down into the seat, so did part of the pilots cover open? in the rear cabin there were two staggered seats with the rear facing forward and the front seat facing back. I expect that there was very little cross bracing at the rear of the pilots seat, other wise he couldn't get in. The rear of the front cockpit normally incorporates an Ash hoop across the longerons. The interior was probably natural fabric and pale varnished wood.

Mahogany is quite a red brown colour My 504.A propeller is quite a dark red wood.

 

John