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PZL P.11c Arma Hobby


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This is the Arma Hobby PZL P.11c Expert Set. The Expert title means it comes with photoetch and masks. The basic kit goes together quite well and appears to be accurate. Some of the photoetch is tiny and the masks are a bit too sticky but the concept that you can have varying levels of features works well. Like most people I think @Wojtek Bulhak from Arma is doing a pretty good job with these kits.

Having built a Revell kit as a schoolkid, this was my second P.11c and I’m pleased to report it is an advance of the Revell one from 1966, although the 1988 PZW Siedlce one I am building in parallel may not be that much, if any!

I used Techmod decals to reperesent #10 of the K.O.P. (Border Protection Force) in 1939, just prior to WW2.

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Polish colours are not the easiest thing to work out but I have had some help - particularly from @JWM. The consensus seemed to settle near FS30118 and this was my aim. I used a vintage tin of Humbrol Authentic HU18 Field Drab kindly loaned by a fellow club member. I would have preferred a straight-from-the-tin colour but didn’t think it was quite green enough so added 6% HU3 Green A3 to it.

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The final result looks about right.

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After building it I have acquired some Model Master #1702 Field Drab which I have used on the PZW kit.

 

Here’s the comparison in artificial light

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and here it is in daylight.

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Any comments from members interested in colours like @GrzeM or @KRK4m or @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies may be most interesting.

 

I have a couple more P.11s in ther works, the aforementioned PZW one, a Revell one and maybe I will get an IBG one. Looking at one with @Michael louey  at a club meeting I was reasonably impressed.

 

Edit - holding the model (and the FS swatch) up against my screen, the colours are reasonably well depicted but in real (model) life they do have a slightly browner cast.

 

 

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Ed, very nice build of P11C in scheme of Polish Korpus Ochrony Pogranicza (KOP - the border protection forces in free translation). They stund up against Soviet invasion after 17 September 1939. 

Regarding colours (as I also wrote you in PM previousely) among Polish aviation history fans and profesionalists the option of brown interpretation of Polish Kaki colour, however it is nit so clear since likely different series of P11 (and earlier P7) could be painted with different shades of olive green or brown.

What can be interesting to all after recent strong repair of Krakow museum P11c it is now painted in a colour of almost milk chocolate brown. In Net you can find an interesting movie of this restored P11c while taxing .

 

Cheers

J-W

Edited by JWM
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1 hour ago, Ed Russell said:

That's a nice video. That colour would seem to be in opposition to every other rendition of Polish khaki.

Indeed! It is just chocolade or marron! More red than Dark Earth. I've bumped to photos of restored P11 recently. The problems of Polish colours is why I have not presented here any of mine Polish machines from 1939... I am pretty sure that all those models, which I did some 20 years ago, had completly wrong colours (greenish all) regarding what people know/thing/consider (???) now about those colours. I am more and more close to repaint them all to brown... But I am not ready for it yet,

Regards

J-W

 

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Very good model and great choce of the marking scheme!!! Congratulations!

 

Speaking about the colour, you choice is OK considering the fact that we don't know the planes serial, so we can not determine if it was from early or late production, nor if it already underwent the overhaul.

PZL P.11c appeared generally in two variants of "dark khaki" colour, one called "mid-period", used between 1935 and ca. 1937 (or 1938) was your shade, more green. I suppose most PZL P.11c left factory in this shade.

Mid-period Polish "dark khaki":

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Many of them underwent overhaul in late '30s which included re-painting in new shade of "dark khaki", more brownish.

Late-period Polish "dark khaki":

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These facts have been determined by examination of the museal airplane (all the paint layers have been checked) and other preserved parts, mostly found by archeologists on the various crash sites.

I've written short article about it, in Polish, but you can easily google-translate it.

https://www.modelpaint.pl/2017/06/24/tajemnice-polskiego-khaki/

If one doesn't want to go deply into the precise variants, RAF Dark Earth is safe and easily available choice for all these airplanes. 

 

This is the bigest and best preserved part of the PZL airplane with original paint finish (late khaki) - PZL P.24 Karaś rudder in WWII Museum in Gdańsk:
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Speaking about decals, Techmods react very well with Microscale Micro Sol liquid, I use it generously both under and over the decals (but be careful then, as the decal film becomes very soft).

 

Propeller should be glossy - it was wooden, covered with special "chinese" high glossy laquer of blackish brown shade.

 

My article about those "Borderland Defence" PZLs:

http://armahobbynews.pl/en/blog/2019/05/16/turkey-marked-pzl-over-the-borderlands/

 

Cheers!

Grzegorz

Edited by GrzeM
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On 11/15/2019 at 8:32 AM, JWM said:

 I am pretty sure that all those models, which I did some 20 years ago, had completly wrong colours (greenish all) regarding what people know/think/consider (???) now

Yes, I have this problem on a very small scale - just one! I am thinking my mid-1960s built Revell P.11c needs a trip to the paint shop.

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@GrzeMsaid

 

 Propeller should be glossy - it was wooden, covered with special "chinese" high glossy laquer of blackish brown shade.

 

I shall fix that - hopefully just with a coat of gloss finish. Thanks for your input - most appreciated.

 

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On 11/16/2019 at 10:49 AM, dogsbody said:

round off that sharp edge on the front of the exhaust collector

Thanks, I have added it to my list for when I get around to repainting the Revell kit

List

Remove paint

Disassemble mainplane, mainplane struts, tailplane struts, wheels, windscreen, cowling and pilot

Correct tailplane orientation – it’s crooked

Square off and drill out (?) wing guns

Round off cowling (thanks Chris)

Add seat, additional undercarriage struts, seat belts, control panel, stick, fuselage bulge

Fill fuselage seams and make good

Choose scheme and paint – either MM#1702 plus green for early or MM#1702 straight for later.

Replace wings, struts, wheels, windscreen, cowling. Add gunsight

Add decals -

Here's the lacquered propeller for @GrzeM

 

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and a question.......... which of the 5 remaining aircraft on the Techmod sheet 72120 are likely to be in early or later colour or is it not possible to tell?

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/techmod-72120-pzl-p11c--162871

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13 hours ago, Ed Russell said:

Here's the lacquered propeller for @GrzeM

 

Great job! It looks much better.

13 hours ago, Ed Russell said:

and a question.......... which of the 5 remaining aircraft on the Techmod sheet 72120 are likely to be in early or later colour or is it not possible to tell?

 

It is never an easy task. Especially considering the fact that the Techmod set is quite old.

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Most obvious candidate for "early" lighter brown khaki is the "1" with 112 squadron rooster - it's serial 8.14 shows it came from earliest production and the older version of the squadron marking (in 1939 it was changed into Salamander) justifies this choice. This plane has been photographed in Stockholm during visit in 1936.
(please note that "early Polish khaki" is third colour, previously we mentioned "mid-period" and "late" khaki. Early khaki is brown, but a bit lighter than late khaki. You may use RAF Dark Brown for it).

 

"65" I suppose could be "early" or "mid-period" (but without white top of the tail and wingtips!) - 8.25 suggest quite early production too, and in September 1938 it was heavily damaged (destroyed?) in a crash in the trees (there are several photos). Maybe later it was repaired and repainted in late khaki? I'm not sure if the white tail top is correct for this plane at all. Well known photo of Toruń P.11c with white elements shows obviously "59" and "52".
One photo of "65" airplane from 19th June 1938 (Commander in Chief Marshall Rydz-Smigły inspection) shows exhaust collector painted in very dark (black?) colour (probably for Marshall's visit).

 

"11" with raven should have white raven with red wings (decal is probably wrong here). Also I don't belive in black-red raven. My article about it (in English) here:

http://armahobbynews.pl/en/blog/2018/07/26/the-raven-symbol-of-fighters-from-poznan/

 

"4" with turkey - "early" or "medium" khaki - if you choose September 1939 version, "KOP" letters and white stripes on the wing should be overpainted with darker "late" khaki. An article about this airplane (in English) is here:

http://armahobbynews.pl/en/blog/2019/05/16/turkey-marked-pzl-over-the-borderlands/

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here is another candidate paint for Polish Khaki. In discussion with @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies it was noted that Colourcoats ACRA11 Marrone Mimetico 1 is close to FS20113, which the sort-of consensus for one of the Polish colours.

I haven't tried it yet but here is 

Top - Colourcoat ACRA11

Bottom - Model master Field Drab

Left - P.11c in MM Field Drab

Right - P.11c as above

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I guess i will have to build more Polish planes to use up all this paint!

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/14/2019 at 7:01 PM, JWM said:

Krakow museum P11c it is now painted in a colour of almost milk chocolate brown.

Here is a potential match to the restored P.11c as it appears in photographs today

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although in the video it seems lighter, more milk chocolate than dark!

Here's a summary of the colours I have tried so far.

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with a FS 30118 chip for reference only

Maybe @GrzeM needs to start a "Polish Colours" thread in WW2 as the information from several people here is useful but buried.

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It's tempting, but I think I don't have time now for making it deeply enough. It is not very easy topic, even if it involves mostly two colours: khaki and greyish-blue in some variants...

 

GWR Chocolate has proper colour, but may be too dark.

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What a gorgeous model Ed and I`m loving the colour scheme discussion. I have never seen those Border Force markings with stripes and zig zags above the wings either,..... very cool!

Wasn`t there a two toned upper surfaces disruptive scheme on at least one PZL fighter?

 

Cheers

          Tony  

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2 hours ago, tonyot said:

Wasn`t there a two toned upper surfaces disruptive scheme on at least one PZL fighter?

Yes it was! I wrote an article about it. It was experimental scheme tested in Warsaw Aviation Technology Institute, but in 1939 September the plane was sent to frontline unit as replacement. The serial number was identified only recently - thanks to the photo which resurfaced on the German E-Bay!!! The photo has been made in September 1939 by one of German soldiers! Still the photos taken by the German "tourists"with their Leicas are great source of informations about Polish 1939 September aviation.

http://armahobbynews.pl/en/blog/2018/07/03/mystery-of-the-camouflaged-3/

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29 minutes ago, GrzeM said:

Yes it was! I wrote an article about it. It was experimental scheme tested in Warsaw Aviation Technology Institute, but in 1939 September the plane was sent to frontline unit as replacement. The serial number was identified only recently - thanks to the photo which resurfaced on the German E-Bay!!! The photo has been made in September 1939 by one of German soldiers! Still the photos taken by the German "tourists"with their Leicas are great source of informations about Polish 1939 September aviation.

http://armahobbynews.pl/en/blog/2018/07/03/mystery-of-the-camouflaged-3/

Thanks for that,..... and what a fabulous article too,...... very, very interesting. As you say,..... German `happy snaps' are a great source of reference,..... the same goes for the Battle of France and the desert war for RAF aircraft too. 

Cheers

          Tony

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12 hours ago, tonyot said:

Border Force markings with stripes and zig zags above the wings

Wasn`t there a two toned upper surfaces disruptive scheme on at least one PZL fighter?

 

Thanks for the nice comments from all of you. The two-tone one features in the kit decaIs of the boxing I made. Here's a model by Peter Davis of ACTSMS in that scheme

 

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K.O.P. markings - looking at the pictures with @GrzeM's articles on the Arma site it seems that the painted-out version that Techmod also gives on their sheet (Post 11 above) is much too neat.

 

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