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Any definitive BoB Sptifires or Hurricane with Black and White Undersides


Curt B

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Hello All,

 

I realize my subject is a hugely beaten dead horse, but despite what I would have thought, I have yet to be able to find a definitive answer to whether there is even a single specific aircraft where photographic evidence exists of a Spitfire, or a Hurricane, that flew during the Battle of Britain, and had the famous Black and White undersides.  While I have read in some places that such a paint scheme was present on BoB aircraft, I can't recall ever seeing any specific aircraft with Squadron identification (even if a specific serial number isn't available) that had the B&W undersides.  Maybe I have misinterpreted what I've read, or perhaps it is wishful thinking on my part, or, perhaps, I've just not done a proper search for such an aircraft, but I can't say I've seen one, thus far.  Am what I am asking for an impossibility, and perhaps no photographic evidence exists of this 'aerial unicorn',is it just that I've not been undertaking the proper internet search, or is it that no such planes ever existed?

Edited by Curt B
Revising to account for new info obtained
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AFAIK, no.

 

But, bear in mind BoB photos are in short supply,  photography was banned on bases, so plenty of gaps in the documentation.  

 

one idea, or supposition,  reports of B/W undersides may well be of training units, or older planes after repairs,  before a repaint, but not frontline fighters.  A ground observer would not know the difference though.

 

The other problem,  an aircraft with B/w undersides, photographed on it's own will just be presumed to be before the Sky undersides came in,  unless there is something to date it,  what you are asking for is a pic with both being discernible.. 

 

HTH

 

 

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You could emulate IWM Duxford’s Spitfire.  19 Squadron, squadron code QV, serial  N3200.

 

OK, not quite BoB but this aeroplane was piloted by PO Stephenson and shot down during the Dunkirk evacuation.  It crash landed on the beach, and was buried in the sand.  It was excavated in the 1990’s, bought by an American, rebuilt, and VERY VERY generously donated to the IWM.  It’s a flyer too.  It only ever bore the squadron QV code, no individual aircraft ID, simply because there was insufficient time between delivery to the squadron and its being needed for operations.   This is how it appears now at Duxford.  You can obtain generic codes and serials in 1/72,  1/48, and 1/32.
 

The current markings are, I’m sure, authentic - underwing black port, white starboard, silver under the cowl in front of the wing, and fuselage behind the wing and under the tail plane.  Do, however, look for photos.

 

I hope this helps,

 

Jonny

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If you consider the BoB official start date as July 10, then at best, you are looking at just one day as possibly witnessing b/w undersides still flying operationally.   On July 11th, an 'incident' occurred wherein an RCAF Hurricane was waved down for flying with improperly painted undersides.   This resulted in the whole squadron being grounded until the paint colour situation was rectified.  

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/cf-aerospace-warfare-centre/elibrary/journal/2015-vol4-iss2-08-a-very-swift-death-to-the-enemy.page?=undefined&wbdisable=false

 

Actually, the unit was still training at this time, and not until August 16th were they considered fully operational.   So if the strictness of rules applied to them while still working up, I can imagine the same went for the front line RAF squadrons.

 

regards,

Jack

Edited by JackG
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Gentlemen, ALL of you who have responded, THANK YOU!

 

I've looked at all the references/places you have suggested, and I've come to the conclusion that there really were no black and white underside Spitfires that were flown as part of the Battle of Britain front line aircraft.  While I find this to be a bit disappointing from an 'artistic' perspective, I have always tried, in all my models that are historical (or current) military vehicles, to make them as accurate as possible.  Given that what Troy wrote about the limited photographs on RAF bases during the BoB was the case, there may have been some individual planes that had the B&W undersides, but then JackG made the point about the strictness of the rules back then.  My feeling is that one could probably take some individual artistic license, but in this case, if I'm trying to recreate a real BoB Spitfire (or Hurricane), looks like I'm best painting it with a Sky underside.  Again, thanks to all of you who have responded...your help is greatly appreciated!!!!!!!

Edited by Curt B
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I'm late to the party but am inclined to agree with your assessment; if you ever do find a photograph of a BoB Spitfire or Hurricane with the black/white divided underside, it is overwhelmingly likely that what you have actually found is a mis-labelled or mis-attributed photograph.

 

Which, as you note, is perhaps a shame from a modeller's viewpoint, but of course there's no reason you can't also build a Battle of France-era Hurricane or Spitfire as well... :D 

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

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I'm late here too so apologies.

 

The order for Sky undersurfaces was given on 6 June 1940 so over a month before the official commencement of the BoB. No operational frontline fighter aircraft would have been carrying the black and white underside colours still at this time.

 

If you want to do the black and white there's more than enough from the Sitzkrieg and Battle of France to choose from.

Edited by Smithy
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6 hours ago, Curt B said:

...there may have been some individual planes that had the B&W undersides, but then JackG made the point about the strictness of the rules back then.  My feeling is that one could probably take some individual artistic license...

 

I have seen comments in squadron ORBs (though not necessarily during Battle of Britain) of encountering aircraft in out of date markings.  The assumption (or suspicion) is usually that it is being flown by the enemy. 

This could be interpreted in several ways:

  • Yes, exceptions did exist
  • No, because (as this shows) recognition of friend and foe is vitally important
  • Yes, there might be some out of date aircraft, but no smart pilot would be (perhaps literally) caught dead flying it
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Now, if I get wind of a rumor that the Russians later buried their He 100s in a swamp in Siberia, I'll be buying a plane ticket ASAP...

 

Edit: Some of those reports were at the time that upper camo changed on fighters.  I thought it was interesting that pilots were immediately suspicious of the "old" paint scheme that had only just been superseded.  (Wonder if that caused any trouble for Army Co-Op Mustangs, that would have kept the old colour?)

 

 

Edited by gingerbob
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19 hours ago, Jonny said:

You could emulate IWM Duxford’s Spitfire.  19 Squadron, squadron code QV, serial  N3200.

 

OK, not quite BoB but this aeroplane was piloted by PO Stephenson and shot down during the Dunkirk evacuation.  It crash landed on the beach, and was buried in the sand.  It was excavated in the 1990’s, bought by an American, rebuilt, and VERY VERY generously donated to the IWM.  It’s a flyer too.  It only ever bore the squadron QV code, no individual aircraft ID, simply because there was insufficient time between delivery to the squadron and its being needed for operations.   This is how it appears now at Duxford.  You can obtain generic codes and serials in 1/72,  1/48, and 1/32.
 

The current markings are, I’m sure, authentic - underwing black port, white starboard, silver under the cowl in front of the wing, and fuselage behind the wing and under the tail plane.  Do, however, look for photos.

 

I hope this helps,

 

Jonny

Choices, choices... there are two Mk.1a's 'backdated' as BoB birds.

One is G-AIST, a 1941 Mk.1a (AR213) marked as P7308 /XR-D
spacer.png

 

Orrrr.. an almost original N3200.

 

Built by Supermarine Aviation, Southampton, 1939.
- Merlin III fitted.
- First flight from Eastleigh, Nov. 29, 1939. Delivered to Royal Air Force as N3200, 1939.
- 8 MU, RAF Little Rissington, Dec. 2, 1939.
- 19 Sqn, RAF Duxford, April 19, 1940.
- Coded QV-, no individual code.
- Failed to return from Op's, when she was shot down and force-landed on the beach at Sangatte, France. May 27, 1940

 

spacer.png

 

Tamiya's 1/48 Mk.1 (61119 - 2018 release) comes OOB with N3200 markings.

 

(photo's made by me)

Edited by alt-92
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1 hour ago, alt-92 said:

...Choices, choices... there are two Mk.1a's 'backdated' as BoB birds.

 

Tamiya's 1/48 Mk.1 (61119 - 2018 release) comes OOB with N3200 markings....

Hmmm, I didn't know the Tamiya Spit had those markings.  I have that model, but I haven't broken open the cellophane yet.  Does the paint scheme that goes with the N3200 show black and white undersides, too?  

 

Regardless, I'm not so much hard over on the idea of a black and white underside BoB Spitfire, as much as I am interested in slightly unusual paint schemes.  In fact, the first (and only, thus far) Spitfire I've built, the Eduard Mk. VIII, I painted in the High Altitude grey over Prussian blue scheme (also with extended wing tips), which I thought was cool because it is different than the usual schemes that is seen on most Spit models everywhere (at least those that I have seen).  However, now that I'm aware of the great Fundecals sheets and associated paint schemes for the pre-BoB Spitfires, and which have the artistically interesting black and white undersides, I can satisfy that urge I have for a plane like that, without trying to make the plane a BoB plane, as Smithy and Stew Dapple so clearly stated above.  That's fine with me. 

Edited by Curt B
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10 hours ago, Curt B said:

Hmmm, I didn't know the Tamiya Spit had those markings.  I have that model, but I haven't broken open the cellophane yet.  Does the paint scheme that goes with the N3200 show black and white undersides, too?  

 

Yes. Some reference research will also turn up the aluminium lower cowling over the oil tank. There seem to have been several versions of the b/w underside scheme. 
I'm guessing Tamiya used the IWM Spit as base (sans the IWM markings) because that is readily available for walkarounds anyway.

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I ended up ordering the Fundekal sheet Spitfires Part 2, which has a bunch of pre-WWII Spitfires with black and white undersides.  I'm thrilled to have found this decal sheet and associated instructions.  Thanks so very much to Roll-Royce, who pointed me in this direction early on in this thread! 😊
 

Edited by Curt B
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