P-61 nocturnal nemesis

[rob85]

Hi all,

 

I have the hobby boss p-61 A kit which has the options of ‘junkin Judy’ and ‘nocturnal nemesis’. I would like to build the latter, as the total would suggest. I can’t find much on the aircraft and what I have found points towards a p-61 B with the upper gun pack/turret, which isn’t how the kit instructions would have it.

 

Am I wrong? Is hobby boss right? Also what role did it play and what kind of armament did it fly with? The kit has the option of bombs, rockets and drop tanks. 
 

any further info would be nice to hear

 

Rob

[Seahawk]

There is a B&W photo of the starboard side of the nose of an aircraft with this name on pages 56-7 of Pape and Campbell's P-61 Black Widow: The Complete History and Combat Record.  It is an aircraft of 421 Night Fighter Squadron in the Pacific theatre.  It is in Olive Drab and Neutral Gray, with a black radome and chequered spinners.  It has a 4-gun turret.    All this from my notes without currently being able to actually look at the photo.  Nor do I have the kit to see how well that tallies with what Hobbyboss have represented.

 

No definite info on date, location or serial (from which it would have been possible to work out the underwing store possibilities).  However all the photos I have been able to pull together for 421 NFS were, whenever a date is given, taken at Tacloban Airstrip, Leyte, in late 1944 except for one taken slightly earlier at Noemfoor Island in August 1944.  The only aircraft of the unit for which I have a full ident is 42-5502 Skippy, taken at Tacloban.  It is a P-61A-1NO, also in OD/NG with chequered spinners and a pitot head on the radome (see photo, Pape and Campbell, op cit, p.54, also Osprey Combat Aircraft 8: Black Widow Units of WW2, p.61).  Assuming Nocturnal Nemesis was from the same initial batch of P-61As, underwing store options would have been limited: certainly no rockets, probably no bombs and (IIRC) no inboard pylons: just droptanks on the outer pylons.

 

HTH.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Seahawk

[rob85]

20 hours ago, Seahawk said:

There is a B&W photo of the starboard side of the nose of an aircraft with this name on pages 56-7 of Pape and Campbell's P-61 Black Widow: The Complete History and Combat Record.  It is an aircraft of 421 Night Fighter Squadron in the Pacific theatre.  It is in Olive Drab and Neutral Gray, with a black radome and chequered spinners.  It has a 4-gun turret.    All this from my notes without currently being able to actually look at the photo.  Nor do I have the kit to see how well that tallies with what Hobbyboss have represented.

 

No definite info on date, location or serial (from which it would have been possible to work out the underwing store possibilities).  However all the photos I have been able to pull together for 421 NFS were, whenever a date is given, taken at Tacloban Airstrip, Leyte, in late 1944 except for one taken slightly earlier at Noemfoor Island in August 1944.  The only aircraft of the unit for which I have a full ident is 42-5502 Skippy, taken at Tacloban.  It is a P-61A-1NO, also in OD/NG with chequered spinners and a pitot head on the radome (see photo, Pape and Campbell, op cit, p.54, also Osprey Combat Aircraft 8: Black Widow Units of WW2, p.61).  Assuming Nocturnal Nemesis was from the same initial batch of P-61As, underwing store options would have been limited: certainly no rockets, probably no bombs and (IIRC) no inboard pylons: just droptanks on the outer pylons.

 

HTH.

Yes that is helpful! Though if it does have the upper gun pack then not so helpful from a building an accurate kit, as mine doesn’t have the gun pack.... now I’m a little bit more confused as the hobby boss boxing has ‘skippy’ on one side of the AC and ‘nocturnal nemesis’ on the other, but they were two different AC’s?

 

i might just look again at after market options with better research 

 

Rob

 

 

[EwenS]

Check out Joe Baugher’s website for serials and notes on the various blocks.

 

The OD/NG aircraft were Blocks A-1 & A-5. The first 37 of 45 A-1 got the dorsal turret. Only the last 20 A-11 got 2 hard points (at least as factory fits).

 

This might help you narrow down the serials.

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p61_2.html

 

[Seahawk]

2 hours ago, rob85 said:

 the hobby boss boxing has ‘skippy’ on one side of the AC and ‘nocturnal nemesis’ on the other, but they were two different AC’s?

Well, since the photo of Nocturnal Nemesis is of the starboard side of the nose and has no associated serial and that of Skippy shows the port side, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that they were the same aircraft but I'd want to look at the fine detail of the 2 photos more closely before coming to that conclusion, rather than pontificate from 200 miles away from my references.

[Dana Bell]

Hi Rob,

 

There are four photos of Skippy/Nocturnal Nemesis that I've been able to find - all were taken at Tacloban, Leyte, PI, on 2 November 1944 by a Signal Corps photographer.  The OD/Neutral Gray aircraft shows serial 42-5502 on the left side; the serial was not photographed on the right side.  I put the two sides together for Air Force Colors III a couple of decades ago, but I could have been wrong.  Here's what I saw:

 

- the same mechanic and 55-gallon drum (used as a ladder) show up in all the photos

- the checkered prop spinners seem to be unique to this aircraft

- the rocks and dirt around the aircraft are identical in all the photos

 

Like I said, I could be wrong...

 

If you go with the scheme, this early P-61A carried no underwing racks.  Also, the turret was the early version; I expect the crew manned three positions, rather that just two seats as on some subsequent models.

 

Whatever you choose, enjoy the build!

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Dana

[rob85]

6 hours ago, Dana Bell said:

Hi Rob,

 

There are four photos of Skippy/Nocturnal Nemesis that I've been able to find - all were taken at Tacloban, Leyte, PI, on 2 November 1944 by a Signal Corps photographer.  The OD/Neutral Gray aircraft shows serial 42-5502 on the left side; the serial was not photographed on the right side.  I put the two sides together for Air Force Colors III a couple of decades ago, but I could have been wrong.  Here's what I saw:

 

- the same mechanic and 55-gallon drum (used as a ladder) show up in all the photos

- the checkered prop spinners seem to be unique to this aircraft

- the rocks and dirt around the aircraft are identical in all the photos

 

Like I said, I could be wrong...

 

If you go with the scheme, this early P-61A carried no underwing racks.  Also, the turret was the early version; I expect the crew manned three positions, rather that just two seats as on some subsequent models.

 

Whatever you choose, enjoy the build!

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Dana

Dana, thank you for clarifying! Yes your right there is a chance you COULD be wrong, but it sounds slim, and I trust your opinion a lot more than mine!! 
 

Thanks again it’s appreciated! 
 

so the decal option is a win but I need a turret basically...

 

Rob

[Seahawk]

59 minutes ago, rob85 said:

...so the decal option is a win but I need a turret basically...

And a P-61A turret, not a P-61B one.

[rob85]

15 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

And a P-61A turret, not a P-61B one.

Right, yes.... I need to look into that

 

Rob

[72modeler]

Just now saw this discussion. I don't know if this will matter to you, but since you're wanting to build the Hobbyboss P-61A kit with a turret fitted, you might not be aware that the upper fuselage part of the kit is not correct; first off, it is molded without the turret or a flashed over opening to mount one; secondly, the upper fuselage contour from the cockpit to the rear radar operator's station  is not correct- being molded as a constant width parallel section, when it should be curved, swelling around the turret circumference. (See the link to a photo showing the actual upper fuselage contour of a P-61A with the two-gun turret installed- it's the in flight photo taken from above. This contour would be present whether or not the turret was fitted. That being said, the Hobbyboss P-61B kit does have the correct upper fuselage contour, but the B had a different turret, the nose was eight inches longer, and the main gear doors were different from the A. There is a lot of discussion and sprue shots of both Hobbyboss kits if you want to do a search in the WIP section. Just wanted you to know, in case it matters. Other than that, their P-61A is a pretty nice kit.

Mike

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=p-61+black+widow+turret&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwietoGLyuvlAhUQ26wKHaZbBK0Q_AUIESgB&biw=1280&bih=654#imgrc=oA1C1fMIzJ_cTM:&spf=1573799010903

[rob85]

40 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

Just now saw this discussion. I don't know if this will matter to you, but since you're wanting to build the Hobbyboss P-61A kit with a turret fitted, you might not be aware that the upper fuselage part of the kit is not correct; first off, it is molded without the turret or a flashed over opening to mount one; secondly, the upper fuselage contour from the cockpit to the rear radar operator's station  is not correct- being molded as a constant width parallel section, when it should be curved, swelling around the turret circumference. (See the link to a photo showing the actual upper fuselage contour of a P-61A with the two-gun turret installed- it's the in flight photo taken from above. This contour would be present whether or not the turret was fitted. That being said, the Hobbyboss P-61B kit does have the correct upper fuselage contour, but the B had a different turret, the nose was eight inches longer, and the main gear doors were different from the A. There is a lot of discussion and sprue shots of both Hobbyboss kits if you want to do a search in the WIP section. Just wanted you to know, in case it matters. Other than that, their P-61A is a pretty nice kit.

Mike

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=p-61+black+widow+turret&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwietoGLyuvlAhUQ26wKHaZbBK0Q_AUIESgB&biw=1280&bih=654#imgrc=oA1C1fMIzJ_cTM:&spf=1573799010903

Oh.... I feel like I should have waited before buying this kit rather than getting it as soon as it was released. There appears to be more scope for the B version in the way of decal options and it sounds more accurate!

 

Rob

[72modeler]

7 hours ago, rob85 said:

I feel like I should have waited before buying this kit rather than getting it as soon as it was released.

Tell me about it! I was so excited we were getting a new Widow at last that I ordered one right away- upon opening the box, something didn't look quite right, and after doing research and looking at a lot of photos, discovered the error in the kit. Imagine my surprise when I saw sprue shots of the P-61B release, (You can fool me one time...) I saw that it had the correct upper fuselage contours! I have no idea why they did the P-61A upper fuselage the way they did, as that part of the airplane was identical from the A to the C, which they also got right!  (Wish the C had seen combat, but it was too late.) With that being said, I will use my HB P-61A to make the XP-61E, as the upper fuselage needs to be cut down for the tandem seat bubble canopy and cockpit. Just for grins, I have attached a link to the P-61B which has been on display in China since the end of the war- looks like it has a non-standard 2-gun turret, but maybe the original 4-gun turret was removed when the aircraft was given to a technical school. There were two P-61B's that were left in China, but IIRC, the  other one was so badly corroded that it had to be scrapped.

Mike

 

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=114989

 

Just now found a photo of the same P-61B at an earlier point in time, as the transparencies have not yet been painted over. Note how badly wrinkled the wing skinning is- possibly because of the corrosion issues of the mainspars, which I think might have been of magnesium?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/paulchapmanphotos/30237300120

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by 72modeler
added link

[Lawzer]

If it’s any use I have the turret parts from the old monogram kit you can have for free.

[72modeler]

Rob,

 

Not clear in your OP...are you working on a 1/72 or 1/48 P-61A? If  1/48, then I can't say whether or not the upper fuselage contour is correct, as I have only the 1/72 P-61A, P-61B, and P-61C HB kiits. Don't want to mislead you or any other BM'ers!

Mike

[Jackson Duvalier]

I'll be following this build as I've got A and B model Widows to do in 1/72.  

 

It's common knowledge that the turret was deleted in some cases and fixed forward in others due to buffeting issues but this is the first I'd heard of different turrets for the P-61A and B-- a quick internet search suggests it may be something to do with the mantlet?  The old Monogram kit I used one to cover both marks!  The only reference I have is the In Action number and those are usually dodgy WRT specifics.  The 1/72 Hobby Boss P-61B turret has obviously spurious elevation slots, and the Dragon P-61A offers the option of some oddball protrusion up top (auxiliary fuel tank?) or a turret delete plate.  Also have the old Airfix kit to rob for parts if need be.

 

I should probably invest in the Pape and Campbell title Seahawk referenced above.  There was some faffing about with the gunner's and radar operator's positions in some aircraft as without a turret a gunner would be redundant-- presumably the radar scope was moved to the seat immediately aft of the pilot?  I'd be interested to model one of the modified birds but haven't seen pics of the changes.

[Seahawk]

Since that first reference to a different turret is from me, maybe you should treat it with some caution, especially since I'm away from my references at the moment.  However I'm pretty sure I've seen a version of the turret with a straight rear edge, unlike the teardrop shape seen in the P-61B.  Skating even further out on thin ice, I might in fact have been confusing it with the fixed barbette which (once again I think) was fitted to some P-61s while the buffeting problems were investigated.  Help me out, someone!

 

The spurious elevation slots disappear if you use the nice Quickboost replacement guns: there used to be 2 versions available (with and without flash hiders) but the last time I looked on Hannants, there's only one available now.  The oddball protrusion provided in the Dragon kit is indeed an auxiliary fuel tank: I don't think it saw much use except for ferry flights.

[theplasticsurgeon]

2 hours ago, Seahawk said:

The oddball protrusion provided in the Dragon kit is indeed an auxiliary fuel tank: I don't think it saw much use except for ferry flights.

Is that what atop this Dragon Nick?

 

The WarbirdTech book by Warren Thompson offers no information about ‘junkin Judy’ and ‘nocturnal nemesis’.

Edited November 16, 2019 by theplasticsurgeon
more info

[Seahawk]

1 hour ago, theplasticsurgeon said:

Is that what atop this Dragon Nick?

 

Yes.

[EwenS]

Re this query about 2 types of turret on the P-61, its been bugging me as quite often there is some element of truth buried in the story. Two thoughts have occurred to me.

 

1. The first 37 P-61A-1 were fitted with the GE remote turret. After that it dropped off production aircraft until the P-61B-15 with the GE A-4 turret, some 363 aircraft later on the production line. Then the last 78 (of 84) B-20 block received the GE A-7 turret with a revised fire control system. The other B-20/25 aircraft got the APG-1 system. These would be 1945 deliveries so how many reached front line units by the end of the war must be open to question. But I suspect that all the changes were internal.

 

2. The second, probably more likely explanation, is that some early turretless aircraft were given fixed "turrets" as a theatre modification in the Pacific, probably at the Hawaiian Air Depot.. These seem to be identified by a different turret cover with a straight rear edge and the centre 2 guns being fitted further forward than the other pair. Pape & Campbell p60 makes reference to that with a photo of 3 aircraft purporting to be so equipped. Personally I can't make it out in that photo but they do appear to be painted black suggesting either an Block A-10 or later or a Depot repaint. There is a chap on this RC site who has done some research on it - you need to scan down the page a bit to come on it https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?3057311-Dynam-s-Northrop-P-61-Black-Widow-Rebuild/page9

Edited November 16, 2019 by EwenS

[72modeler]

Ewen,

 

That's pretty much what my research and references showed. There was a dome-shaped ferry tank installed in place of the turret, usually removed when the aircraft had reached its final destination, and lastly, the streamlined 4-gun turret. As has been stated before, the radar operator's station was  frequently moved to the front, as the extra pair of eyes was most useful, and at the late stage of the war, encounters with enemy aircraft were few and far between, and locking the turret forward gave an extra four forward-firing guns; IIRC in some instances, the new gunner's position in the rear was not even manned. I would also imagine late war ETO Widows also used this same arrangement, as they were used more for night interdiction than for air defense.

Mike

 

BTW, thanks for the link to the RC site, @EwenS-very good turret references!

[Dana Bell]

My sense is that the whole P-61 turret issue is more complicated than what I've seen in books and magazines.  For the last couple of years I've been taking the occasional break from my "normal" research to glance through the P-61 records at the National Archives' Sarah Clark Collection.  (From what I can tell, there are still about four weeks' worth of files waiting for me, if I ever get really serious about a night fighter project!)

 

Anyhow, it appears we have at least three production turrets to consider.  The original turret was to be linked through automatic gun laying radar, but even with the late delivery of the P-61 the AGL was even later.  The gunner (second seat position) could fire the guns at anything forward of the 3:00-to-9:00 positions; the R/O (stuffed in the back) could fire at anything aft of there.  The turret was still fitted without the AGL, but cause such severe buffeting that it was ordered removed.  With about 200 unused GE turrets sitting in the a warehouse, the B-19 folks got interested and "borrowed" them for the forward dorsal position on the Superfortress.  (Many modifications were needed for the turret and the aircraft.)

 

A new, fixed gun mount was fitted to later P-61s, just to improve forward fire power.  The gunner's seat was eliminated and the R/O moved forward from behind the wing.  Several new moveable turrets were tested to eliminate buffeting, but I haven't yet found just when they were accepted for production.  It does appear that the need for rear defense dropped away, and the R/O simply added forward gunnery to his duties.  (Most late-War crew pix show only two crew men standing with their aircraft.)

 

The AGL system finally came into play in 1945.  We've got training school correspondence trying to figure out what sort of training the gunners would need, though the records aren't clear if the training was an additional duty for the R/Os or if a third "gunner-only" position was returning.  (With its many performance issues, the P-61 would have suffered even more with the weight of a third crewman and position.)

 

So all of this is only part of an answer.  But the original Monogram P-61 turret was the early design; I've not looked at enough kits to know if anyone produced an accurate version of the later turrets.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

[Jackson Duvalier]

3 hours ago, Dana Bell said:

My sense is that the whole P-61 turret issue is more complicated than what I've seen in books and magazines.

Indeed. Pretty much every seemingly straightforward aspect of the aircraft history hobby is fraught with spergy controversy: "interior green," tire tread patterns, assembly line changes, post-assembly line modifications....

 

It's fun and frustrating in equal measure.  

 

You've done an awful lot to advance our collective knowledge of these issues, Dana, and I offer my thanks for your efforts.  Do you have a Patreon account or some such where I could buy you an espresso or three to help with the archival rummagings?  😄

[rob85]

On 11/15/2019 at 8:42 PM, 72modeler said:

Rob,

 

Not clear in your OP...are you working on a 1/72 or 1/48 P-61A? If  1/48, then I can't say whether or not the upper fuselage contour is correct, as I have only the 1/72 P-61A, P-61B, and P-61C HB kiits. Don't want to mislead you or any other BM'ers!

Mike

Good shout, I do sometimes ’forget’ there are other scales! 1/72 p-61a!

 

On 11/15/2019 at 7:15 PM, Lawzer said:

If it’s any use I have the turret parts from the old monogram kit you can have for free.

Im guessing you mean the 1/48 kit?

 

As for the rest of you I’m going turret blind, I feel I need to properly read and understand the info you very knowledge guys have put down.

 

Thank you

 

Rob

[Jackson Duvalier]

7 minutes ago, rob85 said:

I do sometimes ’forget’ there are other scales!

BLASPHEMY!  PURGE THE HERETIC!!  J'ACCUSE!!!

 

(Says the guy finishing a 1/48 Lightning... in my defence it is the new Tamiya one... I just wanted to be first on my block... why do you have torches and pitchforks, guys? )