British ASW camouflage...

[brewerjerry]

1 minute ago, Seahawk said:

Hmm.  Where was 502 based at the time?  St Eval?  If so, that was also the base of the PRU Spitfires monitoring Brest etc.  I believe the St Eval Spitfires were major, if not the main, users of PRU Pink.  One could imagine a conversation in the mess one night...  Pure speculation.

Hi

    Actually I think they had a detachment at St Eval , I will try to check 

      cheers

        Jerry

[Graham Boak]

Terence Kelly, in his first book of his memoirs, stopped at St. Eval on his way out to the Far East.  He described seeing PR Spitfires in Blue and one in a dirty grey.  Not very pink.

 

PS. Maybe a different Terence - the Hudson one not the Hurricane pilot.  Higgins?  The loft is closed for the night so I can't check.

 

PS.  Coastal colours?  In old Airfix mags?

 

PPS. Given that the liner which impressed him was in lavender, how did he end up with two shades of pink, anyway?  OK, not really a question for this thread.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Graham Boak

[rossm]

8 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Terence Kelly, in his first book of his memoirs, stopped at St. Eval on his way out to the Far East.  He described seeing PR Spitfires in Blue and one in a dirty grey.  Not very pink.

 

PS. Maybe a different Terence - the Hudson one not the Hurricane pilot.  Higgins?  The loft is closed for the night so I can't check.

 

PS.  Coastal colours?  In old Airfix mags?

 

PPS. Given that the liner which impressed him was in lavender, how did he end up with two shades of pink, anyway?  OK, not really a question for this thread.

Terence O'Brien flew Blenheims from St.Eval then went on to fly Hudsons in the collapse of Singapore. His first book was 'Chasing after Danger' covering this period.

 

For the best I can do for units/dates at St.Eval see http://hrmtech.com/SIG/steval.asp

 

MJF Bowyers 'Coastal Colours' article was in Airfix Magazine Annual 7, one of the references in my page http://hrmtech.com/SIG/articles/coastal_cam.asp

 

Still in the beginnings but I'm trying to do a more detailed page for each of the major Coastal Command types, so far just the Whitley is done http://hrmtech.com/SIG/coastal_whitley.asp

 

I really need to get to the National Archives to see the primary documents but it's not easy from Plymouth!

[Seahawk]

9 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Terence Kelly, in his first book of his memoirs, stopped at St. Eval on his way out to the Far East.  He described seeing PR Spitfires in Blue and one in a dirty grey.  Not very pink.

But PRU Pink wasn't very pink.  And a not-very-pink Spitfire in the poor light of a wet drizzly day (St Eval gets a lot of them - like today) could well have looked grey - or at least as much grey as anything else.

 

From what I recall (I think I'm quoting Les Whitehouse's instructions to Almark sheet A36 PRU aircraft) at least some of the pink PRU Spitfires at St Eval were used for low-level dicing sorties at dawn and dusk.  But we digress even further from OP's topic of ASW colours.

[Graham Boak]

That was the point I was trying to make, that PRU Pink was only useful at very specific times rather than for the long duration of a CC patrol.  And as such relevant to the theme and the specific point raised.

 

Although several pieces do seem to come together here, as the PRU did also use a light grey (also on the Almark's sheet) I am left wondering just which colour O'Brien did see.  

 

[Dave Fleming]

I'm of the opinion that a lot of the early 'PRU Pink Spitfires we see illustrated are actually Sky (Camotint). A weathered Sky could look light grey in some circumstances. Equally, it could be a weathered PRU Blue

[Work In Progress]

Blues might look grey but I can't see how anyone comes to mistake a blue or blue/green or grey/green as anything PRU pink.

[Graham Boak]

PRU Pink was very washed out, nothing like the intense colour seen on the airshow circuit a few years ago.

[Carl V]

I recall that during archival research over four decades ago I came across a report to the RCAF from overseas referring to Coastal Command undersurfaces as now being a pinkish white.  I doubt that I could now locate the notes but I found the remark sufficiently intriguing so that it is still solidly in my memory.

[brewerjerry]

17 hours ago, rossm said:

......   

I really need to get to the National Archives to see the primary documents but it's not easy from Plymouth!

Hi Ross

               PM sent

          cheers J 

[Dana Bell]

Again, my thanks gentlemen!

 

Clearly someone first discovered the advantages white aircraft had when used against the U-Boat.  Somewhere in the record, a first report must exist - "Sirs, our squadron recently discovered...."  While I don't need the info for my own project, I'd be fascinated to know where the credit belongs.

 

I appreciate the votes of confidence on my RAF colours book, but I afraid I'll never be the one to write it.  A book like this needs years of primary research, and the commute from Arlington, Virginia, to London is a bit more than I can handle.  There are several British writer/researchers (some of whom have posted here) who've probably assembled most of what's needed for such a book, and I hope at least one of them will find the publisher who can take on such a project.  In the meantime, I'll have to stick with American subjects.  Next up for me is a re-examination of the camouflages used by US Navy aircraft during World War II.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

[Welkin]

19 hours ago, Dana Bell said:

Clearly someone first discovered the advantages white aircraft had when used against the U-Boat.  Somewhere in the record, a first report must exist - "Sirs, our squadron recently discovered...."  While I don't need the info for my own project, I'd be fascinated to know where the credit belongs.

Seabirds have dark colours above (protection from predators) and light colours below (invisible to prey) for much the same reasons.

[rossm]

21 hours ago, Dana Bell said:

Clearly someone first discovered the advantages white aircraft had when used against the U-Boat.  Somewhere in the record, a first report must exist - "Sirs, our squadron recently discovered...."  While I don't need the info for my own project, I'd be fascinated to know where the credit belongs.

 

Paul Lucas seems to have been through the National Archives with a fine tooth comb for his article on Sunderland III colours in Model Aircraft Monthly January 2009.

 

He states a Professor Blackett being enlisted as Scientific Advisor to Coastal Command in 1941 and asking questions of the RAE which resulted in a note from the RAE to Prof.Blackett stating the current scheme was the result of an Air Ministry decision rather than being based on the pre-war RAE trials and recommending a light colour for fuselsge sides and fin as per the 1939 Air Diagrams for FAA aircraft. Before the Ministry of Aircraft Production would accept a change they requested trials which were done by CC and published in report ORS C/144. He then details the documents sent to various bodies during August 1941 to introduce what we know as the "white scheme" noting that it did not initially apply to flying boats.

[Graham Boak]

Perhaps we should also look at the Peter Scott-inspired Western Approaches scheme for escort ships, or the similar Thayer scheme in the US, which Dana may be more familiar with.  These both offer predominantly white vessels.  As Welkin said, it works for seabirds.

[Dave Fleming]

The discovery that a bright light in the nose 'hid' an approaching aircraft

On 11/13/2019 at 11:44 PM, Carl V said:

I recall that during archival research over four decades ago I came across a report to the RCAF from overseas referring to Coastal Command undersurfaces as now being a pinkish white.  I doubt that I could now locate the notes but I found the remark sufficiently intriguing so that it is still solidly in my memory.

 

Interesting, the matt anti-flash paint used on V bombers etc had a very slight pinkish tinge too

[Graham Boak]

The use of lights to hide an aircraft's shape goes back to WW1: the USN did a fairly comprehensive trial on an Avenger at some time around the end of the war.

[Carl V]

Anent the recent interesting posts concerning white undersurfaces, does anybody out there have anything on the inspiration/motivation/rationalization behind the RCAF’s adoption of all-over white for most ASW aircraft during the last year or so of the war?  Did Coastal Command do this?  Hard information preferred; speculation regarded with interest.

            I applaud the desire for a comprehensive treatment of Coastal Command’s ASW colours and look forward to Dana’s USN effort.  What I would appreciate most of all of course would be a similar treatment of RCAF ASW aircraft.  There is a fair amount of material available, plus, I suspect an even greater volume undiscovered to say nothing of all the inconsistencies in what we know.  As the RCAF’s Eastern Air Command was a significant player in the Battle of the Atlantic it would have some historical value.  Oh, well, one can dream!

[rossm]

44 minutes ago, Carl V said:

Anent the recent interesting posts concerning white undersurfaces, does anybody out there have anything on the inspiration/motivation/rationalization behind the RCAF’s adoption of all-over white for most ASW aircraft during the last year or so of the war?  Did Coastal Command do this?  Hard information preferred; speculation regarded with interest.

            I applaud the desire for a comprehensive treatment of Coastal Command’s ASW colours and look forward to Dana’s USN effort.  What I would appreciate most of all of course would be a similar treatment of RCAF ASW aircraft.  There is a fair amount of material available, plus, I suspect an even greater volume undiscovered to say nothing of all the inconsistencies in what we know.  As the RCAF’s Eastern Air Command was a significant player in the Battle of the Atlantic it would have some historical value.  Oh, well, one can dream!

@Terry @ Aviaeology is your man for the RCAF ASW information, there are 3 or 4 Aviaeology decal sheets covering RCAF ASW aircraft although the Liberator one is OOP.

 

I have not seen UK based Coastal Command aircraft in overall white, nor any documentation for such but there may be a surprise out there if I say it never happened. My assumption is there was no threat from enemy aircraft in the RCAF operating area so camouflage from above was not needed and time was saved by using only one colour.

[dogsbody]

For those who may be interested, I have just gone down to my hobby room and quickly found that particular Model Aircraft Monthly issue and have scanned it into my 'puter. If you would like a copy, PM me your email address.

 

 

Chris

[pat d]

ROSSM said

 

"I have not seen UK based Coastal Command aircraft in overall white, nor any documentation for such but there may be a surprise out there if I say it never happened. My assumption is there was no threat from enemy aircraft in the RCAF operating area so camouflage from above was not needed and time was saved by using only one colour. "

 

I thought  it was actually  glossy white seen from directly below and matt white elsewhere, 2 different formulations of the" same" colour. Can anyone confirm this?

TIA, Pat D

[rossm]

5 hours ago, pat d said:

I thought  it was actually  glossy white seen from directly below and matt white elsewhere, 2 different formulations of the" same" colour. Can anyone confirm this?

TIA, Pat D

That was the formula for sides/undersides of RAF CC aircraft, I don't know for RCAF ones.

[Bengt]

Hi all.

 

From catalouge AIR 15/150 at the National Archives, Kew. Date is 8 August 1941 with Coastal Command camouflage. Note only land based aircraft was instructed to be painted white. Flying boats and sea planes were instructed to be camouflaged later. Gloss white on undersides (to reflect as much light as possible) and matt white on side surfaces.

 

Trying out a new way to share pictures. I hope you are able to check out the link I copied.

 

Bengt

 

https://imgrpost.com/image/AzAB7

Edited November 18, 2019 by Bengt

[Bengt]

...and the order to paint Sunderlands white. From catalouge AIR 15/285.

 

https://imgrpost.com/image/Azk7J

 

Bengt

[rossm]

1 hour ago, Bengt said:

...and the order to paint Sunderlands white. From catalouge AIR 15/285.

 

https://imgrpost.com/image/Azk7J

 

Bengt

I think that one eluded Paul Lucas when he wrote his Sunderland article.

[Graham Boak]

I love the way people keep finding the pieces that help to make up the big picture.  Long may they thrive - but not too long...