452 Squadron - Decal help needed! *****

[Mikey-1980]

7 minutes ago, Magpie22 said:

 

Like I said, I think that is a leek in the centre. Douglas was Welsh! Probably not many Welsh in Costa del Stafford!!

Peter M

 

You'd be surprised.....the board isnt that far away from Stafford to Wales.......unfortunately

[Steve 1602]

Great scheme and I’ll be up for that decal sheet when it’s released I think! 
 

The plant in the horseshoe is definitely not a leek though - speaking as a Welshman, if you served me a thistle in my Cawl I’d be most put out 😆

 

Steve

 

 

[Magpie22]

2 hours ago, Steve 1602 said:

Great scheme and I’ll be up for that decal sheet when it’s released I think! 
 

The plant in the horseshoe is definitely not a leek though - speaking as a Welshman, if you served me a thistle in my Cawl I’d be most put out 😆

 

Steve

 

 

My apologies for any discomfort.  I certainly would not want to spoil your soup. Then again if you were a member of the Welsh rugby team..................?

Any idea as to what the plant is then? At least I can recognise a kangaroo, not so good on flora. 😀

Peter M

Edited December 23, 2021 by Magpie22

[Mikey-1980]

It looks like a Thistle, which is the national flower of Scotland.

[Steve 1602]

6 hours ago, Magpie22 said:

My apologies for any discomfort.  I certainly would not want to spoil your soup. Then again if you were a member of the Welsh rugby team..................?

Any idea as to what the plant is then? At least I can recognise a kangaroo, not so good on flora. 😀

Peter M

 

6 hours ago, Mikey-1980 said:

It looks like a Thistle, which is the national flower of Scotland.

I agree with Mikey Peter - I think it looks like a Thistle as well. I did a quick Google search and there are some brooches and badges with thistles in horseshoes as good luck emblems. Maybe something familiar to Scots members? 
 

Steve
 

 

[Peter Roberts]

I know I shouldn’t but I can’t help it. Any speculation on colours?

 

To my eyes, a yellow horseshoe and ‘roo (looks similar to the roundel yellow), green leaves, stem and bulb of flower (assuming a thistle), purple bit out the top of the thistle, and a black something opposite the roo (maybe a ‘gremlin’?)

 

Any other takers? 

[stevehnz]

I had a fiddle with the image & although not conclusive at all. wondered if, with Douglas' Welsh heritage could it be a dragon?

Steve.

[Magpie22]

10 hours ago, Steve 1602 said:

 

I agree with Mikey Peter - I think it looks like a Thistle as well. I did a quick Google search and there are some brooches and badges with thistles in horseshoes as good luck emblems. Maybe something familiar to Scots members? 
 

Steve
 

 

Flora was never my strong point. Couldn't even get my scout badge for that. I bow to your expert opinion. Leeks and large thistles not common in my country of birth. Now, the question is, why would a Welshman have a thistle emblem on his aircraft?

Peter M

 

7 hours ago, Peter Roberts said:

I know I shouldn’t but I can’t help it. Any speculation on colours?

 

To my eyes, a yellow horseshoe and ‘roo (looks similar to the roundel yellow), green leaves, stem and bulb of flower (assuming a thistle), purple bit out the top of the thistle, and a black something opposite the roo (maybe a ‘gremlin’?)

 

Any other takers? 

 

Stirrer!!

 

[Magpie22]

1 hour ago, stevehnz said:

I had a fiddle with the image & although not conclusive at all. wondered if, with Douglas' Welsh heritage could it be a dragon?

Steve.

Interesting thought, Steve. I don't know. Maybe one of our UK bretheren may be able to help. I've also had a go at trying to enhance the detail on the interior part of the emblem. Still tells me little, though. Am I incorrect in my statement that Douglas was Welsh? Was he a Scot?

Peter M

 

[stevehnz]

The shape also reminds me a bit of Bullwinkel but he post dates WW2 by a couple of decades. I dunno.  

Steve.

[Steve 1602]

45 minutes ago, Magpie22 said:

Interesting thought, Steve. I don't know. Maybe one of our UK bretheren may be able to help. I've also had a go at trying to enhance the detail on the interior part of the emblem. Still tells me little, though. Am I incorrect in my statement that Douglas was Welsh? Was he a Scot?

Peter M

 

Peter- did a bit of Googling and found this in the book “Spitfire Leader: Robert Bungey DFC, Tragic Battle of Britain Hero” By Dennis Newton

 

”Finucane was joined on 8 May by a thirty-four year old Scotsman F/Lt Graham Douglas, who was a former flying instructor. Douglas became the commander of ‘B’ Flight” (of 452 Sqn) 

 

Mystery solved - assuming it’s the same Douglas, he was a Scot and the thistle makes more sense 👍

 

Steve

 

[Ray_W]

3 minutes ago, Steve 1602 said:

Mystery solved - assuming it’s the same Douglas, he was a Scot and the thistle makes more sense

Now Steve, that's solved, but I still can't un-see a Welsh dragon opposite the Kangaroo. Thistle centre. Maybe some more to the story.

 

Ray

[Steve 1602]

12 minutes ago, Ray_W said:

Now Steve, that's solved, but I still can't un-see a Welsh dragon opposite the Kangaroo. Thistle centre. Maybe some more to the story.

 

Ray

Playing around with contrast a little and magnifying…. Is it another kangaroo in a different colour? I can’t account for the ‘squiggle’ on its back but it looks a bit like another ‘roo to me. 
 

 

[Magpie22]

10 minutes ago, Steve 1602 said:

Peter- did a bit of Googling and found this in the book “Spitfire Leader: Robert Bungey DFC, Tragic Battle of Britain Hero” By Dennis Newton

 

”Finucane was joined on 8 May by a thirty-four year old Scotsman F/Lt Graham Douglas, who was a former flying instructor. Douglas became the commander of ‘B’ Flight” (of 452 Sqn) 

 

Mystery solved - assuming it’s the same Douglas, he was a Scot and the thistle makes more sense 👍

 

Steve

 

 

4 minutes ago, Ray_W said:

Now Steve, that's solved, but I still can't un-see a Welsh dragon opposite the Kangaroo. Thistle centre. Maybe some more to the story.

 

Ray

 

Thanks for that info Steve. I have Newton's book, but didn't check that. I note that he describes Douglas several times as a Scot. On the other hand, Chris Shores in "Those other eagles" states that Douglas was born in Colwyn Bay, North Wales on 6 Feb 1917. So, I am not sure that the mystery is solved, short of accessing Douglas' official RAF record. As you say, Ray, maybe some more to the story.

 

Peter M

[Magpie22]

39 minutes ago, Steve 1602 said:

Playing around with contrast a little and magnifying…. Is it another kangaroo in a different colour? I can’t account for the ‘squiggle’ on its back but it looks a bit like another ‘roo to me. 
 

 

 

Another possibility is that the left hand part may be an emu, the other fauna on the Australian Coat of Arms. On my print you can see what could be long legs and large, (and lethal), toes typical of an emu, with the head at upper right. The positions of emu and kangaroo seem to be reversed, but considering the rudimentary nature of the kangaroo, the artist may not have been all that familiar with Aussie fauna. The shield with the emblems of the six states has been replaced with a 'thistle'. My possible emu legs are chopped off in your magnification. 

 

 

I suspect that what we can see of the left side of the emblem on the print may just be the black outlines and the main coloured sections are disappearing into the background paint, possible if it were a brown, as one would expect with an emu.

 

"And I'm telling you, I can run faster than a kangaroo!"

 

More research required!! 

 

Peter M

Edited December 24, 2021 by Magpie22
Emu pic added for those unfamiliar with the bird

[Peter Roberts]

Could Douglas have been born in Wales, raised in Scotland? I have been researching ‘Australian’ Battle of Britain pilots and there are several who were born in the UK but immigrated to Australia where they were raised, so considered themselves Australian when they returned to fight.