452 Squadron - Decal help needed! *****

[Mikey-1980]

Hi,

 

Not sure if this has been listed anywhere, but I stumbled across this page whilst looking for Spitfire AB842 - The "Staffordian"

 

Thought it may be a nice resource for anyone looking up the history of various Spitfires flown by the airmen of Australia & New Zealand.

 

ADF Serials - Spitfires

[EwenS]

ADF Serials is a mine of information on all RAAF and RAN aircraft from its formation to the present day. There is an associated site for the RNZAF. Home page here.

http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/

[Mikey-1980]

Fantastic! 

 

I've just picked up a 1/48 Spit mkvb from IPMS. 

 

Now the hunt for the decal kit serials to build it. 

 

Cheers for the link too

[Mikey-1980]

Bit of a
*Bump on this one please.

 

I am trying to source some decals for a MK Vb Spit - serial number AB842  of 452 Squadron....this aircraft dubbed "The Staffordian" was donated to the war effort by Stafford based manufacturer BRC (British Reenforced Concrete) in the autumn of 1941. This company sadly no longer exists in the town and is now the location for the local Hobbycraft store.

 

I would like to build this in 1/48 scale as I already have a MK Vb spit in this scale and would be perfect doner frame.

 

Hannants do make a 1/72 scale set of decal (option 5 is the aircraft - 452 Sqaudron 1/72 scale decals

 

Does any one know or could anyone develop a set of decals in 1/48 scale please? If possible I will happily pay for your services to do this for me please?

 

Cheers!

 

Mike

Edited December 20, 2021 by Mikey-1980

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

AB842, Taken on Charge 5 July 1941, 38 MU 6 July 1941, 452 Squadron 5 August 1941, Struck off Charge 30 November 1941.

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/SearchScreens/BasicSearch.aspx

 

Search as Guest, 452 squadron history, (Series number A9186 control symbol 137) read the file 1 page at a time or click on the title to have the option of downloading the file as a 464 Mb PDF.  Unfortunately some pages are either missing or at least out of order from October/November 1941.  Using the history Keith Truscott went on leave in late September 1941 as a Pilot Officer and returned on 3 October as a Flight Lieutenant taking command of B flight.

 

AB842 is listed along with its pilots on operations but no aircraft letters are given.

[Mikey-1980]

Cheers @Geoffrey Sinclair some great info on the squadron.

 

Would still love to see if the decals can be obained? Even some generic lettering for the MK Vb in 1/48 would be perfectly fine. The rest I can probably piece together from the existing decal sheet

 

 

 

 

 

[Peter Roberts]

I would love to see this one done in other scales too! A great scheme.

 

Some suggestions, taken from the Hannants listings:

 

Code letters - Colorado CA48080 and Xtradecal X48023 have code letters in Sky (note the Colorado description says Medium Sea Grey but the picture shows a colour closer to Sky - ? Xtradecal may be better choice then?)

 

The name - Xtradecal X48045 has small letters. The font is unlikely to match but may give you a start? The rest will be your artistic skills, some paint and some clear decal. Have you tried a web search for photos of the plane?

 

 

[FinnAndersen]

14 hours ago, Mikey-1980 said:

... Even some generic lettering for the MK Vb in 1/48 would be perfectly fine...

 

Not to rain on your parade, but Spitfire code letters are... not easy. I work in 1/72 and have had a devil of a time finding code letters for a Spitfire XII. Seems that most generic sheets have them in 20 or 24 inch size. Problem is that this particular squadron had a sign painter that painted beautiful letters in 22-23 inch height.

Ended in having to buy 2 sheets for a different mark where I could piece the wanted EB-B codes together. (Seems that the painter was still active in 1945)

 

And then there's the question of what colour your generic sheet manufacturer has chosen... 

 

What I'm trying to say, is that it's not impossible, but a challenge.

 

Best of luck

/Finn

[Magpie22]

Mike,

 

DK Decals have announced on their webpage that they have under preparation a 1/48 decal sheet No. 48PO2, 'Keith W Truscott'. The illustration shows that AB842 will be on the sheet. I don't know when the sheet will be published. Even in that small pic I can see some errors in the aircraft depicted, so be wary.

 

AB842, UD-X, was initially F/L Douglas', 'B' Flight Commander, aircraft. He flew more than 10 ops in her in August / September 1941. When he left the squadron in September, A/F/L Truscott took over AB842, flying at least 8 ops in her until he was forced to bail out from her on 8 November.

 

One point to note is that she left the factory in early July 1941 and was thus finished in the TLS, Dark Earth-Dark Green-Sky-black spinner. From there she went to No. 8 MU where she would have received a Sky spinner and fuselage band. This latter was often painted over the serial. She was received by No. 452 Sqn in early August, still well before the order for Fighter Command to switch to the DFS, Dark Green, Ocean Grey, Medium Sea Grey, Sky spinner and fuselage band. Although the Supermarine drawings were ammended on 16 August, there was a large back log of components and assembles already in production and painted at the subcontractors and in the factories to come down the assembly lines, until components painted after mid August reached assembly stage. In fact photos show that Supermarine, (and CB), were delivering Spitfires finished in the TLS with black spinners and no fuselage band as late as October 1941.

 

AB842 arrived at No. 452 Sqn carrying the TLS with Sky spinner and band added at the MU. I note that DK and several experts state that the No. 452 Sqn aircraft were repainted in a mixed grey, Dark Green and Medium Sea Grey by the squadron. I regard this as highly unlikely as the squadron was re-equipping from the Mk.II to the Mk.VB while still flying operations. In fact during the change over they often flew Mk.II and Mk. VB alongside each other. There was no time to repaint the aircraft at this time, even if there were facilities available to carry out the work. It is possible that No. 452 Sqn's aircraft were slowly repainted in the DFS when undergoing servicing while operations continued, but there seem to have been no imperative to do this until replacements finished in the DFS started arriving in October. However, I regard this as unlikely and, photo evidence would suggest that the few remaining of the original equipment were repainted after the squadron withdrew from Kenley to Redhill in October.

 

The props, spinners, exhausts, and windscreens fitted to those early Mk.VB Spits varied quite a bit. In my notes, I've recorded AB842 as having deH prop, pointed spinner, flat exhausts and curved windscreen with external armour.

 

I don't know what you have found in the way of photos of AB842 but there is quite a good shot of her taken in Ausgust on Alamy.com, photo C5GX8N. A search under 452 sqadron should also find it. I have a few others taken at the same time that I can post here if they are of any interest.

 

HTH the above helps with your model build.

 

Peter M

Edited December 21, 2021 by Magpie22
corrected spelling

[Magpie22]

7 minutes ago, FinnAndersen said:

Not to rain on your parade, but Spitfire code letters are... not easy. I work in 1/72 and have had a devil of a time finding code letters for a Spitfire XII. Seems that most generic sheets have them in 20 or 24 inch size. Problem is that this particular squadron had a sign painter that painted beautiful letters in 22-23 inch height.

Ended in having to buy 2 sheets for a different mark where I could piece the wanted EB-B codes together. (Seems that the painter was still active in 1945)

 

And then there's the question of what colour your generic sheet manufacturer has chosen... 

 

What I'm trying to say, is that it's not impossible, but a challenge.

 

Best of luck

/Finn

Excellent point Finn. I was approached some time ago by a decal producer to help with making some generic codes for RAAF Spitfires. He gave up the project when I showed him that each squadron had its own size and style and each changed one or the other at least once!

BTW, I like you avatar - was a beautiful airplane. I've just finished the plasic bashing on my 1/48 model of same - now to make the decals. 

Peter M

[Ray_W]

51 minutes ago, Magpie22 said:

I have a few others taken at the same time that I can post here if they are of any interest.

 

Peter, Please do. I will be building a 452 Squadron Mk.VB using the new 1/48 Eduard kit I have. I have been looking for a suitable subject and now waiting on the DK decals Truscott sheet with interest. My plan was to cobble together suitable squadron codes and serials from my decal collection. 

 

Ray 

[Mikey-1980]

Some fantastic information from everyone and massive thanks to @Magpie22 as well. A lot of the info you have provided I had no idea about, especially the changes in paint scheme.

 

I haven't been able to find any photos of AB842 as yet, but I will check through Alamy.com though

 

Regards to Decals, Although I would like to get as close to the actual aircraft as possible, It would appear that I may have to go with the slightly larger decals at the 22-24"

 

Do DK Decals resell through Hannents or through their own website as I coudnt see anything on there regards to purchasing I saw the decal sheet in 1/48 but currently out of stock. If AB842 is available in that scale fromt hem soon, Jobs a goodun!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fishplanebeer]

Hannants stock quite a good range of DK Decals for the Spitfire although you may have to mix and match between sheets to get close to what you are after.

 

Regards

Colin.

Edited December 21, 2021 by fishplanebeer

[stevehnz]

Red Roo also stock DK decals, especially Aussie subjects,  @Ed Russell might be able to provide more info on Truscott decals.

Steve.

[Ed Russell]

It depends on location where the best place to purchase from. "Costa del Stafford" sounds like a low-budget resort in Spain but is probably in wintry England.🤣

I imagine Steve Mackenzie would be the main researcher for these particular decals.

[Mikey-1980]

1 hour ago, Ed Russell said:

It depends on location where the best place to purchase from. "Costa del Stafford" sounds like a low-budget resort in Spain but is probably in wintry England.🤣

I imagine Steve Mackenzie would be the main researcher for these particular decals.

 

It is indeed, slap bang in the middle of England. not far from Middle Earth too. Stafford and the surrounding areas are famed for being some of the inspiration for Tolkiens Hobbit & Lord of the Rings saga. 

 

I'll check out Red Roo @stevehnz thanks for the recomendation

[Ray_W]

@Mikey-1980 Have you seen Phil Listermann's title 'SQUADRONS! No.42: The Supermarine Mk V – The Australians'? It is available electronically for a reasonable price. I cannot vouch for the safety of the download. However, I have done it previously with no issue - the Kindle version. 

 

In the title you will find an image of Spitfire AB842 - The "Staffordian" and a profile. Whether the latter is accurate or not I cannot say. The image, which you may of seen already, is from the roundel forward showing "Staffordian" and the horse shoe. and the UD squadron code giving you an estimate for code height and roundel type. Mr Listermann calls it as AB842 and UD-X. The profile shows the fuselage band hiding the serial number.

 

For @Magpie22 it does show flat exhausts, curved windscreen and external armour and a punch out panel in the canopy. No prop is visible. And, to me it does look like Bluey Truscott exiting the aircraft even though the title mentions Paddy Finucane and F/L A.G. Douglas.

 

Ray

 

 

[Mikey-1980]

Thanks @Ray_W I did down load the picture and the horse shoe is clearly visable

 

The UD squadron & X code should give me a good idea on height too. I also noticed on the art work for DK Decals 1/72 set that the AB842 is partially covered by the fuselarge band as well. Not entirely sure why the reg number wasnt repainted, but hey ho?

 

I've contacted Red Roo models to see if they can lend a hand too. 

[Peter Roberts]

On 12/21/2021 at 6:03 PM, Magpie22 said:

 

DK Decals have announced on their webpage that they have under preparation a 1/48 decal sheet No. 48PO2, 'Keith W Truscott'. The illustration shows that AB842 will be on the sheet. I don't know when the sheet will be published. Even in that small pic I can see some errors in the aircraft depicted, so be wary.

 

 

Great news! Thanks Peter. From your post, I gather you think this plane may well have still been camouflaged in Dark Earth/Dark Green/Sky with Sky spinner and fuselage band (?). You note some errors in the DK profile - are there others there that you suspect?

 

I recall seeing a sketch of this aircraft made at the time (I know, art work!) showing it as, from memory, ‘F’, but the artist must have had a reason for applying a different code letter. Was it a guess, or a misheard ‘X’, or was this plane originally ‘F’, then changed to ‘X’? If the latter that may explain the strange position of the aircraft code letter, further back than where it would usually have been because the ‘F’ was just painted out? Just a bit of fun speculation. Would be great to have this scheme in 1/32 as well!

 

Appreciate your expertise as always Peter.

 

EDIT: refer post by Magpie22 below

Edited December 23, 2021 by Peter Roberts

[Magpie22]

@Ray_W and @Mikey-1980 the pics I mentioned. Hope they are of some use.

 

In the Alambie photo, C5GX8N, I referred you to, the pilots in the photo are LtoR: Sgt McGann, F/O Sly, P/O Walters (I.O.), Sgt Dunstan, F/L Douglas. Photo was taken in August.

Note that these photos do not necessarily show the aircraft as it was when Truscott flew it from late September to its demise on 11 November.

 

Peter M

 

 

F/L Douglas in the cockpit. Note the additional artwork inside the horseshoe. The centrepiece appears to be a leek, as befits Douglas' Welsh origin and, to the right is a kangaroo for the Australian connection. I can't make out the figure to the left but it may be the 'Green Man' reflecting the squadron's early time in Kirton in Linsdey, (or, is it supposed to an English rose??)

 

 

 

F/L douglas dismounts. The bloke with the bald patch is P/O D. Lane Walters, the squadron I.O.

[Seahawk]

On 12/21/2021 at 7:01 AM, FinnAndersen said:

 I work in 1/72 and have had a devil of a time finding code letters for a Spitfire XII. Seems that most generic sheets have them in 20 or 24 inch size. Problem is that this particular squadron had a sign painter that painted beautiful letters in 22-23 inch height.

 

I thought I read somewhere in the writings of the late and much missed Edgar Brooks that Spitfires had dispensation to use 21" codes.  You'd sertainly have fun getting 24" codes on a "low-back" Spitfire.

[Magpie22]

13 hours ago, Peter Roberts said:

 

Great news! Thanks Peter. From your post, I gather you think this plane may well have still been camouflaged in Dark Earth/Dark Green/Sky with Sky spinner and fuselage band (?). You note some errors in the DK profile - are there others there that you suspect?

 

I recall seeing a sketch of this aircraft made at the time (I know, art work!) showing it as, from memory, ‘F’, but the artist must have had a reason for applying a different code letter. Was it a guess, or a misheard ‘X’, or was this plane originally ‘F’, then changed to ‘X’? If the latter that may explain the strange position of the aircraft code letter, further back than where it would usually have been because the ‘F’ was just painted out? Just a bit of fun speculation. Would be great to have this scheme in 1/32 as well!

 

Appreciate your expertise as always Peter.

Peter,

 

I remember we had some discussion on this A/C some time ago. AB842 was 'X' from its receipt to its demise as far as I can ascertain. I believe that AB841, generally flown by Sgt Milne, was 'F' in September.

As to the camouflage AB842 carried, I have set out my views above, i.e. TLS when it arrived at the squadron in early August. However, it is quite possible that it may have been re-camouflaged later in the DFS. I have no photos of it taken after August so can't be definite one way or the other. Photoshow some A/C were re-camouflaged, e.g. W3821, UD-D, but this appears to have happened until late September or October.

 

In fairness, no further comment on the DK Decals until I actually see them. Their decals featuring RAAF A/C have been about 50% correct.

 

Cheers,

Peter M

[Ray_W]

41 minutes ago, Magpie22 said:

F/L douglas dismounts. The bloke with the bald patch is P/O D. Lane Walters, the squadron I.O.

 

Thank you Peter, much clearer images than what I have and confirms F/L Douglas.

 

Ray

[Mikey-1980]

Hi Peter, 

 

These photo's are fantastic!! Thank you very much for them I will try and run them through a colouriser to bring out some of the detail too.

 

I am curious with the horse shoe as well, as there seems to be a Thistle in the centre with the Kangaroo but I cant quite make out what is on the left side of the thistle?

[Magpie22]

18 minutes ago, Mikey-1980 said:

Hi Peter, 

 

These photo's are fantastic!! Thank you very much for them I will try and run them through a colouriser to bring out some of the detail too.

 

I am curious with the horse shoe as well, as there seems to be a Thistle in the centre with the Kangaroo but I cant quite make out what is on the left side of the thistle?

 

Like I said, I think that is a leek in the centre. Douglas was Welsh! Probably not many Welsh in Costa del Stafford!!

Peter M