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Hawker Hunter paint finish


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Is there anyone, who can reliably confirm the year that the silver undersides were superseded by Light Aircraft Grey.?

I know that Data File 16 states, on page 46, 1966, but I all the references would seem to indicate it was much earlier.

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Not sure which references would seem to indicate that Light Aircraft Grey was introduced before 1966, all the references I have to this colour mention the introduction in 1966, with undersurfaces of RAF Hunter previously being in aluminum paint.

In particular, Light Aircraft Grey was the name given to colour 9-095 the BS 2660 standard for "Colours for Buildings and Decorative Paints". The colour was incorporated in BS381c with the name we all know in August 1966.

This colour was selected because when the RAF switched to polyurethane paints for aicraft they found that it was not possible to make these paints in a finish comparable to the then current aluminum paint. Colour 9-095 from BS 2660 was chosen as the most similar for camouflage purpose. Before the introduction of polyurethane paints there was no Light Aircraft Grey in the RAF (and there was no colour bearing that name in the standards).

 

At the same time the aluminum paint was known to weather to a matt greyish finish, and it's sometime hard to tell if the undersides of a Hunter were in silver or grey, so it could well be that some sources have mistaken a weathered aluminum finish for a grey one. Of course if the picture is taken before 1966 then the finish would be aluminum and after around 1972 all aircraft had received the grey undersurfaces, but in pictures taken between 1966 and 1972 it's possible to see both and mistake one for the other

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On most (but I think not all!) planes if the upper camo slightly wraps around the leading edge, the lower paint would be light aircraft grey.

 

But looking at pictures of XF515 when she was flying in the airshow circuit in 43 Sqn colors, she seemed to have been in silver although the upper camouflage wrapped around the leading edge 🤔

 

But I’m happy to stand corrected on all this...

 

G

 

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3 hours ago, guillaume320 said:

On most (but I think not all!) planes if the upper camo slightly wraps around the leading edge, the lower paint would be light aircraft grey.

 

But looking at pictures of XF515 when she was flying in the airshow circuit in 43 Sqn colors, she seemed to have been in silver although the upper camouflage wrapped around the leading edge 🤔

 

But I’m happy to stand corrected on all this...

 

G

 

 

If you mean XF515 when in civilian ownership, she would have been repainted after her service with TWU (the last RAF user of the aircraft). Pictures of XF515 taken in the late '80s show LAG undersurfaces (and matt paint... the move from semigloss to matt paints is another aspect of the change of finish in the early '70s).

Whenever she received the new coat of paint, the owners may or not have covered all details of the original paint scheme correctly.

In any case I'm sure I have an article somewhere that discussed the introduction of the upper colours wrapped around the leading edge, it may well be that aircraft with silver undersides received this detail before switching to LAG

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14 hours ago, Jordi said:

And bear in mind that a year is when a directive might have been issued, but in 99.999% of cases aircraft weren't repainted until their next depot level maintenance cycle.  Not sure how the RAF did it, but in the USAF that could be several years.

In the RAF peace time repaints were done on a time basis.  Documentation shows that the RAF moved from LAG to wraparound camouflage in the mid to late 1970's. I was on 4 sqn  in 81/83 time period but we still had  aircraft with LAG undersides when I left. In fact I remember we had  a jet with  LAG underfuselage but the wing had been changed at some point and this was in the wrap around scheme.

 

Selwyn

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Looking at photographs of 20 Sqn Hunters based at RAF Tengah, it seems that those with white serial numbers has aluminium undersurface and those with black serial numbers are with Light Aircraft Grey undersurface. 

 

Can that be the guide to identifying whether a RAF Hunter has aluminum or LAG undersurface based on the serial number colour?

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29 minutes ago, YK GOH said:

Looking at photographs of 20 Sqn Hunters based at RAF Tengah, it seems that those with white serial numbers has aluminium undersurface and those with black serial numbers are with Light Aircraft Grey undersurface. 

 

Can that be the guide to identifying whether a RAF Hunter has aluminum or LAG undersurface based on the serial number colour?

 

 

The timelines tend to match, but I've yet to find a copy of the AMO/DSI that replaces white serials with black ones. The LACG tended to be done at next major servicing and repaint. It happened quickly - a few of the Javelins in the Far east had light grey undersides (Ned to check their serial colour)

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23 minutes ago, YK GOH said:

Looking at photographs of 20 Sqn Hunters based at RAF Tengah, it seems that those with white serial numbers has aluminium undersurface and those with black serial numbers are with Light Aircraft Grey undersurface. 

 

Can that be the guide to identifying whether a RAF Hunter has aluminum or LAG undersurface based on the serial number colour?

Could and could not...

Hunter serial numbers were originally in black, then some started appearing in white and during the '60s they seem to have been mostly white. At some point the serial numbers were reapplied in black. I'm in the same position as Dave here as I don't have any official document stating when black serial numbers were supposed to be applied, but yes the timeframe match and as both black serial numbers and LAG would have likely been applied at the first repaint, it is possible that these two features appeared together.

This however would only be useful if looking at a picture taken in the late '60s-early '70s... and of course there may be exceptions ! The 20 Sqn. Hunters you checked would fall in this timeframe as the unit was in Tengah between 1961 and 1970.

However if the picture is older, then the undersurfaces will be in silver with both white and black serial numbers. The same 20 Sqn. F.6s for example sure carried black serial numbers in the late '50s.

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One other thing that is indicative, albeit not definitive, is that if the leading edge wraps round it's in LAG but if the demarcation is on the leading edge it's Silver. All these things tended to happen around the same time, but one does not neccessarily mean the others

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2 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

One other thing that is indicative, albeit not definitive, is that if the leading edge wraps round it's in LAG but if the demarcation is on the leading edge it's Silver.

That’s what I was trying to explain in my post (#4)

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5 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

 

 

The timelines tend to match, but I've yet to find a copy of the AMO/DSI that replaces white serials with black ones. The LACG tended to be done at next major servicing and repaint. It happened quickly - a few of the Javelins in the Far east had light grey undersides (Ned to check their serial colour)

I had no idea that some Javelins also received LAG undersides. Amazing what you learn here.

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1 hour ago, Timbo88 said:

I had no idea that some Javelins also received LAG undersides. Amazing what you learn here.

 

Just a few that came through major servicing in 1966/7ish

This one is the last major at Tengah

49666833_2062914263798411_63271031977646

This one was Coltishall, 1966. Note the tanks and pylons in HSS
51640228_1915812258541796_14900275262552

 

Edited by Dave Fleming
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  • 8 months later...

I was based at Kemble with the Red Arrows in 1966/7 and photographed the first two 4FTS F.6s (XF384 and XG274) to appear from the paint shop in what I recall to be LAG with white serial numbers. I’ll dig out the photos but am sure the undersides were not silver.

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The T7 and T8 Hunters that we had on 237 OCU in the mid-late seventies definitely had LAG undersides. 

The Buccs were being painted in wrapround in the hangars whilst I was there but it wasn't until some time later (after I was posted away) that the Hunters changed to the wrapround scheme.

Trevor

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https://files.prositehosting.co.uk/htdocs/1417Flt-pennant-1964_RD(small).jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Radfan Hunters
Desperately trying to post an image but can't get it to work! Would someone kindly delete this post? Thank you.
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On 11/11/2019 at 10:20, YK GOH said:

Looking at photographs of 20 Sqn Hunters based at RAF Tengah, it seems that those with white serial numbers has aluminium undersurface and those with black serial numbers are with Light Aircraft Grey undersurface. 

 

Can that be the guide to identifying whether a RAF Hunter has aluminum or LAG undersurface based on the serial number colour?

Might I ask this group a tangential question?  Did any Javelins, especially those in the Far East ever get LAG undersurfaces?

 

Thanks,

Neil

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I can't evidence it at the moment as I'm in work, but I'm pretty sure the last service Javelins did have the light aircraft grey undersides and that the upper camo colours wrapped under the wing leading edges slightly is a good indicator of that scheme. 

I think there are pictures out there showing some fitted with contrasting belly fuel tanks in silver. 

 

BTW, great to see @Radfan Hunters here, his site is an absolute treasure trove for reference pictures of that period.

Edited by 71chally
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7 hours ago, neilfergylee said:

Might I ask this group a tangential question?  Did any Javelins, especially those in the Far East ever get LAG undersurfaces?

 

Thanks,

Neil

 

Post #13 above! One thing I've noticved about javelins is that the wing leading edge wrap round isn't indicative of LAG - later ones iwth silver undersides also had wrap round

 

Hmm, looks like the images aren't loading, I'll see what i can do about that

 

XH872 was one of them, which was the last Javelin to go through major servicing at Tenagh, lets see if Facebook allows me to link:

49666833_2062914263798411_63271031977646

Edited by Dave Fleming
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On 8/1/2020 at 9:09 AM, Radfan Hunters said:

I was based at Kemble with the Red Arrows in 1966/7 and photographed the first two 4FTS F.6s (XF384 and XG274) to appear from the paint shop in what I recall to be LAG with white serial numbers. I’ll dig out the photos but am sure the undersides were not silver.

 

66/67 would be right for LAG. I've never been able to accurately tie down the introduction and replacement of the white serials, they did disappear about that time, but I don't think it was directly related.

 

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Having found a way to post images, here are the two mentioned earlier.

The first two Hunters F.6s to be issued to 4 FTS at Valley were XF384 and XG274, pictured at Kemble in late 1966 awaiting their ferry pilots. I think you can see that the undersides are no longer silver-metalic and the complete aircraft seems to have been finished with a much shinier lacquer, but as I said before, I'm no expert when it comes to paints.

XF384_Kemble_04-67_RD-600x400.jpg

 

XG274_Kemble_04-67_%28Privately%20owned%

 

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@neilfergylee these images at the IWM show late service Javelins with the LAG undersides, notice how the pylons and tanks are still in silver

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205225680

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205213982

 

In photos, even colour ones it can be very hard to distinguish the silver from the LAG undersides, which is why the upper colours wrap around is so handy.

 

What do we think of this one, I've always taken this as LAG (the underside colour looks tonally different to the pylons and tanks to me), has the wing wraparound, but taken in 1966?

Gloster_Javelin_FAW.9_XH776_P.11_COLT_18

 

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