PAK 36 (r) in Middle East - British 3 inch?

[Olmec Head]

Although I normally make aircraft models (sorry), I have just been reading a Pen and Sword book 'British Armoured Divisions and their Commanders 1939-1945'.  In chapter 5 (about el Alamein} page 91 the authors says that the PAK 36 when examined by British ordnance officers were obsolete British 3 inch AA guns provided to the Russians, not just Russian 76.2mm field guns.  I cannot find anything to support this assertion online and I have not seen any similar assertions made elsewhere.  There is no reference to support the claim in the book.  Can anyone provide any information or clarification on this idea please?

[Kingsman]

Seems very unlikely. The Pak 36r was an adaption of the M1936 F-22 field gun, and later the ZIS-3. Neither related in any way to any British 3" AA gun.

 

In any case, we weren't on friendly terms with Soviet Russia until after Barbarossa, so any 3" '20cwt' AA provided to Russia from 1942 would have been too late to have been captured, converted and shipped to N Africa.

 

3" AA had a very much shorter and thicker barrel and was never on a split-trail carriage. It was a turntable weapon. The Russian guns needed muzzle brakes to reduce recoil. Very different weapons.

 

Most PaK 36r were re-chambered for the longer PaK 40 ammunition to ensure continued supply. Because Russia measured calibre across the rifling grooves, the Russian 76.2mm guns were 75mm by German standards as they measured across the lands.

 

Re-use of captured German equipment was often investigated in N Africa. It is plausible that a 36r in its original Russian chambering might have been examined for compatibility with 3" AA ammunition, and might possibly have been compatible or able to be made compatible. Before the US 75mm ammunition arrived with the M3 Mediums that was the only remotely compatible ammunition we had.

 

In a reverse example, captured (superior) German APHE and HE ammunition for the 7.5cm KwK 37 was adapted to work with the US M2 and M3 guns by swapping the projectiles and skimming their driving bands to fit.

[Olmec Head]

Thank you for the detail provided about the PAK36r.  I fully agree about the unlikelihood of old WW1 British 3" AA guns becoming PAK36rs in the Desert at Alamein, but the detailed synopsis from yourself proves the issue without doubt.  It is worrying that a military historicy author could state that this was the case and repeats it again later in his book.  Other Pen and Sword Books I have read have been somewhat amiss (one tried to prove the Stuka was a success in the BoB) so I did doubt the veracity around the author's claims about the PAK36r.

[Kingsman]

The 3" ammunition would not have been directly compatible, if for no other reason than it used a necked case and the Russian case was straight tapered.  But it might conceivably have been possible to alter the chamber.  However, as the UK measured calibre across the lands our 3" / 76.2mm ammunition would have been 1.2mm too large for the Pak 36r bore.  Complete re-barrelling would not have been practical.  We were in desperate need of more effective AT guns in the desert and the ability to re-use the PaK 36r somehow would have been tantalising. 

 

In that respect about 50 3" 20cwt AA gun were made into the little-known 3" 16cwt AT gun, possibly on a 25pdr carriage (and 50 more fitted to the Churchill Gun Carrier as a proposed tank destroyer), and half of these went to the Middle East.  The 3" cartridge case was later mated to the 17pdr shell to make the HV 77mm ammunition for Comet.  So it wasn't a puny weapon.

 

Errors in books are sadly not uncommon, but are often included in good faith based on faulty witness interview recollections or incorrect or contradictory surviving paperwork.  I suspect that the story has become confused.  Knowing now that some (little-known) British-built 3" 16cwt AT guns were sent to the desert the original story may have been a comparison between the 2 weapons.

 

Up to 120 3" AA guns were abandoned by BEF in France, but AFAIK there is no evidence of German re-use of them - probably because of the calibre incompatibility.  A handful were exported to Finland during the Winter War but that was the only export.

[AltcarBoB]

On 06/11/2019 at 21:35, Das Abteilung said:

In that respect about 50 3" 20cwt AA gun were made into the little-known 3" 16cwt AT gun, possibly on a 25pdr carriage (and 50 more fitted to the Churchill Gun Carrier as a proposed tank destroyer), and half of these went to the Middle East.  The 3" cartridge case was later mated to the 17pdr shell to make the HV 77mm ammunition for Comet.  So it wasn't a puny weapon.

 

I have read that some 3" 20cwt barrels were mounted onto spare 17pdr carriages to create the 16cwt AT gun. I bet in the Desert well away from official eyes some crazy things were welded together on both sides of the line

[Graham Boak]

I think this as a confusion with 17pdr guns being mounted on 25pdr carriages (very officially) in the later stages of the desert campaign.  No doubt in the middle of the night I will remember what they were called - possibly Pheasant?  This was because there was a shortage of the 17 pdr carriages: there certainly wouldn't have been any spare stocks floating around the ME during the Desert War.

[Kingsman]

They were indeed called Pheasant: 17pdr Mk1.  On 25 pdr carriages as the ordnance was ready but the new carriage for it was not. 

 

However, it is reputed in several online sources that 50x 3" 16cwt AT guns were created earlier on field mounts as an emergency expedient along with 50 converted for the Churchill 3" Gun Carriers.  The towed guns were apparently allocated 50:50 to Home and Middle East and were probably superior to the shorter barrel 6pdr (MkII?) then in service.  They certainly threw twice the shell weight at a decent velocity.  It should be noted that the US also put the 3" M7 gun from the M10 on a field carriage from the 105mm howitzer.

 

But one hole in this story is that the 3" 16cwt were said to be mounted on 17pdr carriages, which would be impossible as they pre-dated that carriage being available.  The 25pdr carriage would have been suitable - it took the much more powerful 17pdr - and was about the only available carriage that was suitable.  That possible use of the same 25pdr carriage by both weapons may be part of the confusion by sources not specifically identifying the 17pdr Mk1 carriage.

 

If such a weapon existed, there don't seem to be any photos of it.