Bristol Blenheim roundels

[binbrook87]

Hi there. I'm part way through building the Airfix Blenheim Mk 1F in 1/72nd scale and was planning to finish the aircraft in this pre war 25 sqn scheme from August 1939......

 

But I am unsure how accurate this would be, in still having type A1 roundels on the upper wings as i thought they would have gone by 1938? The only photographs i can find show the wing roundels overpainted to give type B effect to match the fuselage which seems more plausible?

 

 

 

 

Any help or opinions would be appreciated. Thanks 👍

Edited October 28, 2019 by binbrook87

[Graham Boak]

I believe that you are right, in that the A1 roundels were either in both places or neither.  Given the comparatively late appearance of the fighters, I'd go with neither.  As in the photographed example, with evidence of overpainting.

 

The only qualification is, just where has this model come from?  Did the modeller know something about this particular aircraft that isn't obvious, has he (I assume a he) misunderstood a similar photo, or is he simply doing what he likes and doesn't give a monkey's about confusing anybody later who might be misled into thinking it real?

Edited October 28, 2019 by Graham Boak

[binbrook87]

The markings on the model are available as decals on both Xtradecal (which i have) and Print Scale sheets...which both show this unusual scheme at Northolt in 1939.... apparently?

[Graham Boak]

Well, that rules out the third option, thankfully.  Another possibility is that it had come out of storage to be converted and was photographed before they got around to redoing the upper wing roundels.  I think that would rather imply that the fuselage roundels should show signs of overpainting previous A1 examples.

[binbrook87]

That's an interesting theory 👍 I've also found this colour plate which seems to suggest that the upper wing roundel may have had just the white area overpainted to create a smaller 'B' type...but with the yellow outer ring remaining until subsequent further repaint?

 

 

[Graham Boak]

Yes, that would be the next stage followed by overpainting the yellow.  I have seen photos of such surviving "B1" roundels, but would expect them also to be on the fuselage rather than overpainting the yellow in one place but not the other.  How many of these were deliberately retained is open to discussion - I suspect few.  After all, from the point of view of camouflage the last place you want such things is on the upper wings.

[binbrook87]

Different mark of Blenheim but I've just found this photo which possibly proves that both roundel types were used together......

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

Fine.  You can however see overpainting around the fuselage roundels.   I notice that the codes butt up against the roundel onto the overpainted area, which suggests that the roundels changed (officially) at the same time as the codes were introduced rather than carrying the squadron number.  Which is not too surprising, I guess.

[binbrook87]

57 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Yes, that would be the next stage followed by overpainting the yellow.  I have seen photos of such surviving "B1" roundels, but would expect them also to be on the fuselage rather than overpainting the yellow in one place but not the other.  How many of these were deliberately retained is open to discussion - I suspect few.  After all, from the point of view of camouflage the last place you want such things is on the upper wings.

You do make a valid point though that of all the areas to be 'toned down' the upper wing area should be the most important to do first. Very interesting subject though 🙂

[Graham Boak]

There must have been many aircraft existing, if briefly, in a mix of colours and markings, at times of change. They wouldn't normally be chosen for photographs, I'd have thought.  Or for photographic flights, so perhaps we are exceptionally fortunate in having this one.  

 

Usually it is the underside roundels that get left, presumably for the obvious reason of access.  Painting the fuselage is much easier than painting the upper wing, too.

[binbrook87]

Thanks very much for your comments, much appreciated. Always good to get a 2nd opinion. I think I'll plough on with my original plan to match the model example shown in the original photo. It will represent a 'transitional' scheme 1938/39.....and who's going to argue with that eh? 🙂

[Troy Smith]

23 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Well, that rules out the third option, thankfully.  Another possibility is that it had come out of storage to be converted and was photographed before they got around to redoing the upper wing roundels.  I think that would rather imply that the fuselage roundels should show signs of overpainting previous A1 examples.

Poor profiles can cause this, or one company copying another.  Print Scale seem to get a fair amount of negative comments on accuracy, and Xtradecal are only as good as the research input,  and that varies.  I had to draw lines on a photo to prove to a designer that what he had shown was wrong, it was a small detail,  but it was an oddity about a code letter.

And this is why you want to see the original photo.

for example

just this image

could quite easily be used as the basis for the colour plate this comment attaches too.

22 hours ago, binbrook87 said:

I've also found this colour plate which seems to suggest that the upper wing roundel may have had just the white area overpainted to create a smaller 'B' type...but with the yellow outer ring remaining until subsequent further repaint?

 

this is of note also for the way the codes have a top line, and then try to fill down, compare the J with the T

 

great image, surprised that is not on a sheet!

 

there maybe something in here

scanned here

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings/07-Bristol-Blenheim

 

If my book was to hand, I'd have a look,  if you don't already have this, well worth a read.

 

HTH

[binbrook87]

Superb! The link is fabulous.... I'll have a trawl through those images and see what i can come up with. Paint is going on the model tonight so i will have to decide pretty quick 🤔

[303sqn]

The model and explanation are in Wingleader Magazine issue 1. You can read/download it for free here:

 

https://www.wingleadermagazine.com/issue1

[binbrook87]

Brilliant! That just about confirms my original suspicions. Type B roundels on upper wings it is then. Fascinating. Thanks for all your input 👍

[binbrook87]

I've just found that the 1/48 Printscale sheet actually shows a photo of RX-M as reference, even though it clearly has the upper wing roundels overpainted and not as on the sheet! So clearly incorrect.

 

 

After much deliberation I've decided to go for this 604 sqn machine instead, as the markings seem much more accurate for a 1938/39 era aircraft. Unusual type B roundels on the underwing but these do seem to have been applied to some aircraft.