FinnAndersen Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 (edited) From time to time there has been discussion on what type of seat harness the RAF used in their Allison engined P-51. Speculations has two major candidates: The British Sutton-type or the US type and I wavered between the two. Just found this picture while reading a book on Danish participation in Allied Forces during WW2 This is Vera Elise Strodl, a ATA pilot with a Danish mother. Nice smile, but look what she has in her right hand. I'm not in doubt any longer. Now did anyone mention the same discussion of the type of handle fitted on the control stick? RAF spade or pistol grip? Show me your proof. Best regards Finn Edited March 7, 2022 by FinnAndersen image host update Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 But is that a "P-51A" (Mustang II), or a Mustang I/IA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnAndersen Posted October 23, 2019 Author Share Posted October 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, gingerbob said: But is that a "P-51A" (Mustang II), or a Mustang I/IA? AFAIK, It's not a P-51A as it misses the small went window in the left hand windscreen Other things to note is the early type antenna mast and the blanked-off quarter window hiding a camera. /Finn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Mc Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 What DOES she have in her left hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, Eric Mc said: What DOES she have in her left hand? AN6530 goggles and a A-11 flying helmet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Mc Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Does that answer the harness query? I built the 1/72 Academy P-51A as a Mustang I a short while ago. My harness was just strips of masking tape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Just now, Eric Mc said: Does that answer the harness query? No but you asked what she has in her left hand and hence my answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Hi, Finn, In her RIGHT hand... hasn't she got the right side Hutton shoulder belt? Aren't those the big holes on it? Regarding the control column... I think old Bert Kinsey Detail in Scale P-51 Part 1 comes with a picture of a spade grip fitted to the first NA-73 prototype... only it is a normal single piece US-style stick with the spade grip in place of the pístol grip, not the British type with pivoting upper stick segment! I shall look for the picture. FErnando Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Mc Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Left/Right - I still struggle. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnAndersen Posted October 23, 2019 Author Share Posted October 23, 2019 48 minutes ago, Eric Mc said: Left/Right - I still struggle. Right: The other left Left: the other right 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColFord Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 (edited) No speculation - FACT. The Allison engined Mustangs supplied to the RAF, being the original Mustang Mk.I, Mk.IA and Mk.II all used the RAF supplied and fitted Sutton Harness. That is confirmed by numerous original period documents including the RAF Pilot's notes and RAF Aircraft Servicing Manuals, a whole lot of photographs and confirmed by pilot's who flew them. No speculation - FACT. The Allison engined Mustangs supplied to the RAF, being the original Mustang Mk.I, Mk.IA and Mk.II came from NAA fitted with the standard US pistol grip style top section to the control column. There are the photos of an early cockpit mockup produced by NAA showing a circular spade type control column top section. These were photos produced by NAA for publicity and other purposes. But as the aircraft came off the production line, they came with the standard US style pistol grip. That is confirmed by original period documentation including the RAF pilots notes, a whole lot of photographs and confirmed as well in newsreel footage and confirmed by the pilots who flew them. A very, very, very few, probably no more than a handful, of very early AG serialled Mustang Mk.Is were modified at unit level at the direction of senior officers, to have their usual 'personal' allocated aircraft modified by the removal of the US style pistol grip and its replacement with a circular style spade grip. That circular grip was sourced from another NAA product already in RAF service, the NA Harvard Mk.I. It was apparently a relatively simple substitution, undoing and removing the original grip and disconnecting the firing button wiring, then replacing it with the circular grip from the Harvard Mk.I - the tubing diameter of the two control columns was the same and the wiring for the gun buttons was the same. The officer(s) requesting this personal modification had the 'clout' to get it done and in particular were long serving RAF officers who were very used to the RAF style circular spade grip and felt uncomfortable flying with the US style grip. Confirmed to me personally by pilots who had seen the circular style spade grip fitted to the senior officers early Mustang and who had on occasions flown that senior officer's Mustang. The unofficial modification did not last long as the senior officer(s) involved realised that they could never guarantee availability of their allocated aircraft and the rate of turnover of early AG serialled Mustangs in Squadrons as aircraft were sent back into MUs for further modifications or passed on to the OTU for non-operational use, it made more sense for them to stick with the standard US pistol grip. From the details provided to me by the pilots involved, including access to Squadron records and original Pilot's Log Books, I have been able to identify by serial some of the aircraft so modified, where and when. The later Merlin engined Mustangs used by the RAF in the UK and MTO were all fitted with RAF supplied and fitted Sutton Harnesses and were fitted with the NAA supplied standard US style pistol grip top section to the control column. That is all confirmed by numerous original period documents including RAF Pilots Notes, RAF Aircraft Servicing Manuals, lots of photographs and pilots who flew them. There are numerous other threads here on Britmodeller where the matter of what type of harness, control columns and other details of early RAF Mustangs have been well covered, which include copies of original period documentation and photographs for reference purposes. Similarly the types of harness, control columns and other details of RAF Merlin engined Mustangs have been pretty well covered and detail provided. Unfortunately in recent years there have been a couple of publications pitched at modellers that have been less than accurate in presenting the full and correct information on RAF Mustangs, both Allison engined and Merlin engined, and a lot of "myths" from earlier published works have been repeated without confirming accuracy of the original source material. The original source published material that a lot of these publications have depended on was based around what was available in the 1960s, 70s and 80s, well before many of the relevant files held in Government archives were declassified and became available to later generations of researchers and authors. They get quoted often in response to queries on forums such as this one, and so the myths and inaccurate information keeps geting perpetuated. The aircraft shown in the original post is an early AG Serialled NA Mustang Mk.I with the early 'plated funnel' style camera installation (was discontinued in favour of the simpler cut out perspex window arrangement on later production AG, AL, AM, AP series Mustang Mk.I and certainly never seen on a Mustang Mk.IA or Mk.II), that in this photo where the camera lens would normally be, has been 'plugged'. Well used and worn aircraft, probably overdue to head to a MU for some servicing including a repaint. And to be completely accurate, a RAF Mustang Mk.I is technically not a P-51. It is a Mustang, but the type predates the adoption of the US P51 type designation, which came in with the P-51 Mustang, which was the equivalent of the Mustang Mk.IA in RAF service. Edited October 23, 2019 by ColFord Typo 7 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) Ah, but there were the two XP-51s that were part of the original American blessing of production. (So the designation is a bit earlier than the Mustang IA, is the point I was trying to make.) Edited October 24, 2019 by gingerbob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnAndersen Posted October 24, 2019 Author Share Posted October 24, 2019 5 hours ago, ColFord said: ... The later Merlin engined Mustangs used by the RAF in the UK and MTO were all fitted with RAF supplied and fitted Sutton Harnesses and were fitted with the NAA supplied standard US style pistol grip top section to the control column. That is all confirmed by numerous original period documents including RAF Pilots Notes, RAF Aircraft Servicing Manuals, lots of photographs and pilots who flew them. ... Thanks for the very comprehensive answer. It makes perfect sense that the RAF would want to standardize the seat harness. Question: Did the seat then have the cutout in the back for the base of the "Y" part of the harness as e.g. the Spitfire seat? I'm asking because I have never seen photos supporting that assertion. /Finn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColFord Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) The harness came up over the top of the seat back. On the Mustang Mk.I thru III, the 'Y' part was behind the seat, in the gap between the seat back and the armour plate behind the pilot. The anchor point and tensioning mechanism was on the floor of the cockpit at the forward edge of the base of the armour plate, with a tension and locking control for the harness down to one side of the seat. So the shoulder straps came up over the seat back, over the pilot's shoulders and then down either side of his chest to the locking buckle down near his waist. Finding a really good and clear photo to show this is difficult. Most of the staged pilot in cockpit photos the pilot is sitting on top of and in front of the harness. There are a couple of good technical photos, but I can't share at present as they embargoed for a future publication on the Mustang in RAF Service. A fellow researcher has gone through all the relevant files and found the RAF Modification paperwork for the Mustang Mk.I thru IV cross referenced to the relevant AP amendments, and it includes modifications to upgrade earlier variants of the Sutton harness with later variants and to introduce modifications such as reworked anchor points, stronger components, etc. That covers from 1942 through to 1945. In particular, Mod 544 for AP2025H was for the replacement of the earlier Sutton Harness originally fitted to the Mustang IV with the Sutton 'Q'Harness - that one dated July 1945. Hope that helps. Edited October 24, 2019 by ColFord Typo 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnAndersen Posted October 24, 2019 Author Share Posted October 24, 2019 18 minutes ago, ColFord said: .. There are a couple of good technical photos, but I can't share at present as they embargoed for a future publication on the Mustang in RAF Service. .. Your explanation certainly helps. Hope the future publication will be available soon. Thanks again Finn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junchan Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 Paragraph 30 of the Pilot's Notes Mustang I Aeroplane mentions the Sutton harness is used. Jun in Tokyo https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColFord Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 AP2025A - Pilots Notes Mustang Mk.I - early (orange cover) AP2025A, 2nd Edition - Pilots Notes Mustang Mk.I and Mk.IA (blue cover) 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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