2020 GB Bunfight poll

[vppelt68]

Dennis, the last time I remember reading the British AFV thread it had a very strict post-WW2 models- only rule. That sort of killed it for me, and maybe some others too. If that changed, at least I missed it because I had already lost interest in it. V-P

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

18 minutes ago, vppelt68 said:

Dennis, the last time I remember reading the British AFV thread it had a very strict post-WW2 models- only rule. That sort of killed it for me, and maybe some others too. If that changed, at least I missed it because I had already lost interest in it. V-P

No it hasn't changed, my thoughts then and now still remain that there is enough armor type vehicles from 1914-1945 to earn its own build and Ive said that somewhere in the thread. It is what it is VP, i still have next year to try again. Though I've been sad and shocked that no one else wanted to try and run this type of build before me, especially on a British based modeling forum ? I can understand people not liking it because its the wrong time period. That or even because its a Yank proposing and running it. But dang I did figure there would be some interest in it ? Oh well It is what it is. 
 

Dennis

 

Frankly its my ginger headed step child for now. And it can stay on the back burner. Unless someone wants to adopt it ? 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[vppelt68]

I see your point, but still can't help thinking how many Matilda, Churchill, Cromwell etc. builders had to skip it

 

[trickyrich]

15 hours ago, CliffB said:

 

We probably need to ensure that minority interests are not totally excluded. For example, would an armour themed STGB stand any chance in an annual bunfight?  I'd suggest no chance at all!

 

I know that some believe the majority view should always prevail and I suppose that's OK provided the voting system is fair.  Unfortunately, our current voting system can produce results that are not representative.

 

Here are two recent examples which I chose pretty much at random (so there's absolutely no criticism intended for the corresponding hosts or participants ):.

The two examples are the MTO II GB and the Pz.IV STGB.

 

First question: which would win if they were both in a bunfight vote together?  Answer: almost certainly the MTO GB.

Second question: which actually had the larger number of active participants?  Answer: the Pz.IV STGB.

 

If I counted correctly, 35 members posted one or more builds in the Pz.IV Gallery, but only 21 members posted in the MTO II Gallery.

 

The 21 posting members from MTO II equate to just 33% of the 64 members who have recently voted for MTO III.

The 35 posting members from Pz.IV equate to 85% of the 39 members who have recently voted for the British AFV GB proposal.

 

I know that my comparisons are not precise, but to me it's clear that a large number of 'hollow votes' (my name for the votes cast by members who don't then participate), can distort the voting and falsely put some GBs through, ahead of more popular ones (more popular that is, amongst those who actually participate). 

 

I think the answer is simple.  We should be given fewer votes - I'd suggest a maximum of three each.  This would concentrate our minds on what we really want to build and significantly reduce the number of 'hollow votes'.

 

Just my two pennies worth !

 

...and a very well put 2 pennies/3.5 cents (ours are worth less) with here., I agree with you 100% (=150% Aust)

14 hours ago, Kushan_Farsight said:

Personal note - as a newby to the BM forums, i do find all this Group build stuff quite confusing, at least in terms of the nomination and determination. Not sure on the rules and limits on GBs, some of the abbreviations have obviously been around the forums for years and take some form of cryptography for me to determine (thankfully i now know what KUTA gbs are now) what even is a STGB? Short Term Group Build? Six till Ten Group Build? who knows! Have i missed an FAQ with all these terms and explains how all this works? if so could someone direct me to it  

 

Finally, i know its the participation that counts not the winning, but are there ever 'prizes' for the GB's? Even if its the host rooting around in his old stash just giving a way a 1/72 Starfix Bf109, or a 10% off your next order at Hannants code etc? - this might encourage more participation? i saw something from a thread i think in 2016 which offered some discount P-51 kits (the baseline of the group build) along with some bonuses to the winner, but nothing for the last couple of years?

 

The lingo here is interesting, not helped by the fact we're from all over the place, and for are lot of us english is our second language....and we can only speak one language!  Generally if you have any queries just pop a question up in the tread, there's always someone crazy enough to give you the right answer. 

 

We occasionally have prizes but the issues is getting them to the winners, often the postage is way more than the prize is worth......plus some may start to take things a wee bit too seriously! And we on a whole are not a serious bunch!

11 hours ago, Robert Stuart said:

Some builds do have prizes.  Having hosted builds with prizes, I feel they have their own problems - not least: the nature of the prize has to suit the Britmodeller audience - some of the most active people in this thread are based in Australia.  (ot: As a Brit, I wouldn't 'alf like a discount in some of the Aussie model shops - bought some good stuff from down under)

You must tell me where??? I have to buy a lot of my AM stuff from there and Europe, even with postage it's cheaper than here, plus you have a much better range. Sydney has the worst hobby shops anywhere I've been! AM stuff I do buy here I get from Melbourne and models mostly direct from China, 1/2 - 1/3 of what I'd pay here and that's inc postage!

[trickyrich]

41 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

No it hasn't changed, my thoughts then and now still remain that there is enough armor type vehicles from 1914-1945 to earn its own build and Ive said that somewhere in the thread. It is what it is VP, i still have next year to try again. Though I've been sad and shocked that no one else wanted to try and run this type of build before me, especially on a British based modeling forum ? I can understand people not liking it because its the wrong time period. That or even because its a Yank proposing and running it. But dang I did figure there would be some interest in it ? Oh well It is what it is. 
 

Dennis

 

Frankly its my ginger headed step child for now. And it can stay on the back burner. Unless someone wants to adopt it ? 

Dennis you could always do a 2 part GB? 1914 - 1945 and a Post 1945?

 

GB's and votes can be very fickle at times and you do need to massage the GB to suit.

 

Arrr li'll bloodnuts/ranga's gotta love'em

[trickyrich]

11 hours ago, Enzo Matrix said:

he's right, yannow...  It's quite scary! 

.................

 

What time is it when a elephant sits on a fence?

Time to get a new fence.

 

What's grey, beautiful and wears glass slippers?

Cinderelephant!

........................double whammy!!!! 

[Enzo the Magnificent]

42 minutes ago, vppelt68 said:

I see your point, but still can't help thinking how many Matilda, Churchill, Cromwell etc. builders had to skip it

 

There were still Churchils and Cromwells used post-war.  Keep an eye on the They Also Serve forum for a Korean war Cromwell.

[vppelt68]

29 minutes ago, Enzo Matrix said:

There were still Churchils and Cromwells used post-war.  Keep an eye on the They Also Serve forum for a Korean war Cromwell.

No need to discuss this further in my opinion, but it was originally strictly for four post-WW2 British designs only (Centurion, Chieftain, Challengers). My bad for not reading all the updates  ! V-P 

[trickyrich]

........ohhhh Enzo??????

 

What is an elephants favorite rap song?

I like big nuts, and I cannot lie.

........................... 

[trickyrich]

.....and you get a doubleheader because I like this one! 

 

What do you get if you cross an elephant with a kangaroo?

Giant holes all over Australia.

 

.................................
 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

54 minutes ago, trickyrich said:

GB's and votes can be very fickle at times and you do need to massage the GB to suit.

Thanks Rich ... Ive had to massage this thing for its whole life. Ive continuously changed and adapted it just to get it to this point. It was started as a Chieftain STGB. It has continuously morphed from day one till we have what exists now. Its starting to really drag on me to the point i have really started to lose interest in it. I will think on it some but not truly sure if i will adapt it yet again ? 
 

Dennis

[Robert Stuart]

1 hour ago, trickyrich said:

You must tell me where??? I have to buy a lot of my AM stuff from there and Europe, even with postage it's cheaper than here, plus you have a much better range. Sydney has the worst hobby shops anywhere I've been! AM stuff I do buy here I get from Melbourne and models mostly direct from China, 1/2 - 1/3 of what I'd pay here and that's inc postage!

You could check out BNA Model World in Victoria.  Admitedly I found them using a well known online auction site, and I've always used that channel, but BNA do have a web-site:  https://www.bnamodelworld.com/ .  They carry armour stuff I couldn't find over here.  Where else would you find one of these ... https://www.bnamodelworld.com/scenics-diorama-homewares-plus-model-plus-el065

And yes, China has otherwise unobtainable models at more approachable prices.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

2 hours ago, trickyrich said:

Dennis you could always do a 2 part GB? 1914 - 1945 and a Post 1945?

Im messaging @Enzo Matrix as we speak. Im thinking of starting over from scratch with adjusted rules to reflect your idea Rich. Im tired of modifying the original idea so will start over if i can.  
 

Dennis

Edited December 4, 2019 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Giorgio N]

Interesting debate here about the merits of GBs touching on less common subjects ! Now personally I'm a fervent supporter of these and all the GBs I proposed I always tried to give chances to build such subjects, both in terms of type of kits (vehicles, ships, figures) and markings (all the "abroad" series hoped to have models wearing the most diverse markings).

However, even if I would myself love to see more "different" stuff, the fact remains that in the end modellers vote according to their tastes and interests, and if we want a democratic vote, then we have to accept that certain GBs will always be favoured over more niche oriented ones. Would I like to see more "third world" military subjects ? I sure would but I can't hope to see a Gb dedicated to such hardware raise more interest than one covering some well known WW2 action.

Same for the aircraft Vs. the rest debate, in Europe in general aircraft outsell all others by a wide margin, and this is reflected well in the relative size of the sections of this same forum. It's a fact, we can only accept it.

With the above in mind, I wonder if it would really be right to change the formula used to select the GBs for the following year ! I can understand that it could be a nice thing to leave some more room to the "minority", and IIRC the moderators tried something similar a few years ago. I'm all in favour of course. At the same time though I wonder if it's really worth complicating the process.

 

Of course this year we'll have a chance to build some other stuff in the new GB created by Enzo, who deserves all our gratitude ! Personally I will try to participate in a few GBs, even in those that I may not have voted for... afterall a GB is a kind of party for all modellers, and taking party is always a pleasure.

 

 

[trickyrich]

@Giorgio N I agree with you on that. 

 

I don't think GB's are broken but I do think there needs to be a chance for some of the more unusual of less thought about build ideas.

 

Members may initially not be up with the idea given a chance to see what can be done within them I think may completely change their ideas/perceptions.

 

As I have said earlier (and many times in the past) lets have these mega BG's be lets also ensure some of these lesser ones have a chance to show (even educate) members on some of these really interesting and varied subjects.

 

I still reckon we need a split poll with say 1/2 the mega GB's and 1/2 the more specialised or unusual GB subjects. (I've tried to do this with a couple of my previous GB's) No matter how old you are there's alway so much more new and interesting to learn about, and our GB's are so good at that!

[Hockeyboy76]

What about a wild card GB space kept aside each year. Then have a little bun fight over which one gets it out of the lower vote options or just agree with whatever our dictator @trickyrich nominates. 
 

What’s the best thing about Switzerland?

 

I don’t know, but it’s flag is a big plus!

[Robert Stuart]

To be fair, a lot of the group builds that succeeded in this poll were broad ranging.

 

So far as I am aware, Chopper and Interceptor are the only two build that are air only.  Everything else that passed can be land sea or air.

While all the builds reflect the military in some way, three of them allow for civilian types: Chopper, Scandinavian, and 'Kit you built as a Kid'

 

The two builds that got the least votes were very British focused.

 

[Kushan_Farsight]

Thanks for all the links and explanations all!  Now i know what STGB means!  

Didn't mean to cause any offense with any GB suggestions, this is a great site and has a great atmosphere, i sometimes just enjoy working on 'left of field' designs and themes from the normal topics, and thought i would throw my hat in the mix for some alternative suggestions! I myself am guilty of focusing nearly exclusively on planes, so that may have been a bit of a self serving idea to push me to actually getting one of my AFV kits made (but the amount of parts that make up an individually linked pair of tracks, terrifies me!)  

Although this site is called 'BritModeller' im learning there are a LOT of international members, which i didnt think about when i first put forward the idea of a prize, just assuming £3 and a Hermes box would cover any shipping! Perhaps if any gift of value was to be considered, it could be digital content (such as an E-Book, premium video documentary etc) or it could be a £3 PayPal voucher, so anyone could use it internationally for their own purchases (i assume most people on here have a fleabay /paypal account). 

 

Can anyone tell me if there are any 'deadlines' for joining a planned/upcoming/running GB, or a set time to register interest? I can see that they run between X and X date, but do i have to log interest a certain time before the start, or does that sometimes vary? I can see that you may want to avoid people dropping out of the ether with completed builds when they haven't said a word beforehand.

There are a couple of group builds from the GB bunfight i want to add my name to (the ones i voted for), but also the Fictional And Speculative GB that is currently running (looks to be the only GB my Baynes Carrier Wing could be suitable for!) 


I also seem to have missed a key detail from previous comments, in keeping with this forum topic.

 

Why couldn't the bicycle stand up by itself? 

It was two tired.

 

 

[trickyrich]

@Kushan_Farsight first up...keep up the really bad jokes!  

 

Fresh ideas and comments form new members is always nice to see, some of us old farts can get very stuck in our ways!

 

The general rules with GB's, you see one in the GB chat you like just go to the end thread and post your interest. Once a GB (or STGB) gets the required number of member interest (25 members for STGB's and 30 for GB's), then in GB's it goes into the annual Bum Fight () or for STGB's the next available slot (currently in 18mths time!!!!). You're not committed to it.

 

GB's that get the votes then get a slot in the coming years calendar, usually run for 4 months (STGB's run for 3 mths). You can join any GB even if you didn't show interest in it, and you can leave any GB as well, no one will criticise you for it, we all have for some reason or another. You'll always be welcome to join a build, right up to the finishing day. 

 

There's a gallery in each GB for completed builds, to be eligible to post in it you must have a build thread with some progress photos.......though there are some members...who will remain un-named, that have a habit of doing one update post before posting their completed builds!! Now who could that be.........??? 

 

If you have an idea that you think would be a great GB, just start a thread in the chat section. Normally the idea person will be the host, but if you're unsure someone will offer to Host for you. Just jump in as Co-Host to learn the ropes. Rules....the easiest way is to look up ones from previous GB's........ and copy them!  Other wise just ask for help, someone will bound to help.

 

But the biggest thing is to just jump in and have fun..... and learn lots.

 

Dad, can you put my shoes on?

No, I don't think they'll fit me.

 

 

 

 

[Robert Stuart]

39 minutes ago, Kushan_Farsight said:

Didn't mean to cause any offense with any GB suggestions,

I don't think you did.  The guys here are passionate about group builds, and the debate has rumble on for as long as I can remember.  Sometimes it flares up a bit, but that just shows they care.

 

39 minutes ago, Kushan_Farsight said:

Can anyone tell me if there are any 'deadlines' for joining a planned/upcoming/running GB, or a set time to register interest?

Joining: Join a group build before it closes.  People do like to read a series of posts, perhaps join a conversation and share ideas, but, in principal ... you could join, build your model and post the final shots in the nano-second before it closes.

Registering interest is not compulsory, but it helps with the 'atmosphere' - as much of the fun of the build is in the conversations that develp around the project as in making the model itself. 

 

 

On AFV kits, I find building plastic track glueing link to link tedious, and the stuff collapses.  Link and length (ready moulded runs of track) is no better.
Flexible tracks however (metal or plastic) ... there is a zen quality to this task that I find relaxing.   Of course, you can spend as much on the track as on the rest of the vehicle 

[Giorgio N]

Prizes; I don't think there's any rule however there have been GBs with prizes given to the models voted in the first 3 places. At the other end of the spectrum, there have been GBs without a poll to vote the best models. And everything in between.

Of the GBs that gave out prizes, I remember a few that were "sponsored" by shops or publishers. There have also been GBs where the prizes were sorted by the hosts, in this case of course the prizes were of relatively little economic value. As an example, when I hosted the first F-104 STGB a fee years ago, I gave as prizes a few Starfighter unit patches I had bought at a local militaria show while my co-host had got something else of similar value. Other hosts did similar things.

Having a poll and prizes has pros and cons, personally I have no strong feeling either way. Clearly having prizes puts a bit more pressure on the hosts and I can see how many prefer to avoid the hassle.. so much that in other GBs I hosted I decided not to offer prizes as I didn't have the time to look into them.

[helios16v]

5 hours ago, Robert Stuart said:

To be fair, a lot of the group builds that succeeded in this poll were broad ranging.

 

So far as I am aware, Chopper and Interceptor are the only two build that are air only.  Everything else that passed can be land sea or air.

While all the builds reflect the military in some way, three of them allow for civilian types: Chopper, Scandinavian, and 'Kit you built as a Kid'

 

The two builds that got the least votes were very British focused.

 

Even in that, Interceptors was allowing SAM & AAA units as well...as they are tasked with "intercepting" incoming aircraft with their missiles/artillery.

[Hockeyboy76]

@trickyrich, I see your dad joke and raise you,

 

How many apples grow on a tree? All of them.

 

Want to hear a joke about paper? Nevermind it's tearable. 

 

Dad, did you get a haircut? No I got them all cut.

[Col.]

7 hours ago, Robert Stuart said:

To be fair, a lot of the group builds that succeeded in this poll were broad ranging...

...Interceptor are the only two build that are air only...

As @helios16v says...

2 hours ago, helios16v said:

Even in that, Interceptors was allowing SAM & AAA units as well...as they are tasked with "intercepting" incoming aircraft with their missiles/artillery.

Anything designed or employed to shoot down air and space craft is eligible for this one  

5 hours ago, Robert Stuart said:

...in principal ... you could join, build your model and post the final shots in the nano-second before it closes.

Otherwise known as 'Doing an Enzo.'

[JOCKNEY]

A man goes into the hospital with 6 plastic horses up his bum. 

The doctors described his condition as stable.

 

Couldn't find any more nelliphant jokes for Rich !