F-104S references?

[Tomas Enerdal]

Dear all,

I'm seriously considering a new kit of one of the few jets I'm interested in, The Italian F-104S.

The new Kinetic 1/48 F-104G converted, possibly with the aid of the large Daco correction set.

I also understand that the best modelling reference is the Daco book, but also that it covers mainly G with derivatives.

Is there any special reccomended reference that could help me sort out the (modelling) details for the F-104S ? Unit histories are of a lesser interest, but I allways want to make an as accurate model as at all possible.

TIA,

Tomas Enerdal

Edited October 9, 2019 by Tomas Enerdal

[CT7567]

I don't know of a single best reference on the Italian Starfighters, but there is an abundance of material available online.  You mentioned not being as interested in unit histories, but for accuracy of airframe, weapons loads, and colors & markings, knowing something about the unit histories and sub-types assigned to each Stormo/Gruppo can be very important.  For example, just the term "F-104S" could refer to anything from the original deliveries, to the F-104S ASA mid-life upgrade, or the final F-104S ASA-M.

 

I recall several years ago reading a website that had detailed info and good illustrations of all the variants as well as the unit histories and role assignments in AMI service, but unfortunately I no longer have the bookmark.  I'll see what my Google-fu may be able to turn up and post any meaningful results here.

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello Tomas Enerdal

There is a booklet Aeritalia F-104S in Italian from Monografie aeronautiche Italiane series which is, given its size of twenty or so pages, very informative. Original may be a bit difficult to find, but you may search the web for an e-book version. Otherwise, there are drawings of F-104 S here, those depicting F-104 S ASA here, and walkarounds here, here and here, to list only the first three that popped up during my search. Also, F-104S has been debated quite a few times here on BM, so searching Cold War forum might yield more information than one expected.

As CT7567 pointed out, histories of particular units could be very useful, as not all of them had had interception as their assigned role. If Doomsday models happen to be your cup of tea, knowing which one had been tasked with ˝carico speciale˝ delivery would be essential. Otherwise, wait for a while as our Italian members with more information are probably about to chime in any minute. Cheers

Jure

[RidgeRunner]

@Giorgio N is your for this.

 

Martin

[Giorgio N]

Really I can't think of a book that has described all the F-104S variations in the kind of detail interesting for a modeller. The main basic differences are generally there in most books (intakes, exhaust, ventral fins) but often with omissions and I've not seen a true in-depth analysis of tthe many other differences and the evolution that certain details had over the years.

Fortunately there's some interesting material on the web. Unfortunately most of this is in Italian language, that may or not be the easiest to use for you.

Generally I'd advise these two links, one of which is also available in English:

 

https://theaviationist.com/special-reports/italian-f-104-versions-explained/

 

The link above discusses the various differences but only features a few pictures of the cockpit.. or better, featured, as these have fallen victim to Photoucket more recent policies...

 

The link that IMHO is most useful is this discussion on an Italian modelling forum:

 

https://www.modelingtime.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17306

 

All in Italian, but really a great guide to the many big and small differences between G and S and among the various S subvariants and updates. I don't know how accurate an online translator could be to make sense of the whole page, in my experience these translators are not the best when it comes to technical terms, Fortunately the page features a lot of pictures that explain well the details.

 

Regarding books, I have some memory of a modelling guide that was supposed to be issued at some point, again in Italian though.. I've lost track of what happened to this, I'll get back to you with the details in case it's already out.

[Tomas Enerdal]

Dear All,

Thanks, oh thanks again! I just had a quick look and this looks just wonderful!

Mind you, I will not be careless when it comes to unit histories or markings, on the contrary. But it is those small details that i find so rewarding while building. And it is the lack of information thereoff that I find so frustrating. I have many, many, many modelling projects that have come to a standstill and are lying in their boxes, waiting for info.

I'm a real nitpicker.

Thank you, again!  

[RidgeRunner]

On 10/10/2019 at 11:32 AM, Tomas Enerdal said:

Dear All,

Thanks, oh thanks again! I just had a quick look and this looks just wonderful!

Mind you, I will not be careless when it comes to unit histories or markings, on the contrary. But it is those small details that i find so rewarding while building. And it is the lack of information thereoff that I find so frustrating. I have many, many, many modelling projects that have come to a standstill and are lying in their boxes, waiting for info.

I'm a real nitpicker.

Thank you, again!  

If you want an all round book on the S you could get "Coccarde Tricolori Speciale 6, F-104S/ASA,ASA-M and TF-104G-M" from RN Publishing. It is in Italian but is full of photos.

 

Martin

[Tomas Enerdal]

Martin,

Thanks for the help. I found a copy on the net and have ordered it. From the publishers description it sounds very promising!

[Hook]

One dfference that seems to elude a lot of folks: the front edge of the S ventral fin has a more acute angle than on other marks. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Giorgio N]

1 hour ago, Hook said:

One dfference that seems to elude a lot of folks: the front edge of the S ventral fin has a more acute angle than on other marks. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

Yes, it's a detail that many sources forget. Here's a view of the area, showing the angle of the leading edge of the ventral fin

 

 

The picture also shows the very dark grey used for the stencils on aircraft in the overall grey scheme. This is F-104S ASA-M serial number MM 6767, preserved in a museum just outside Rimini

[Tomas Enerdal]

Quote

The link that IMHO is most useful is this discussion on an Italian modelling forum:

 

https://www.modelingtime.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17306

 

All in Italian, but really a great guide to the many big and small differences between G and S and among the various S subvariants and updates. I don't know how accurate an online translator could be to make sense of the whole page, in my experience these translators are not the best when it comes to technical terms, Fortunately the page features a lot of pictures that explain well the details.

Totally agree! That link is a treasure! The result from the online translator made perfect sense as well, I've learnt  lot. Now I'm eagerly awaiting the Sky Models decal sheet. And I have decided to get the Daco correction set. Even though it i meant for the Hasegawa kits, it seems to be so full of useful items for a F-104, it seems to be a must also for the Kinetic one.

(No doubt Kinetic will issue a F-104S later...)  

[Tomas Enerdal]

I’m in love!

 

I’ve been studying pics, trying to understand the variations with camouflage and markings.

I have found my candidate, 37-01 in the “polipo” configuration as found here

Interesting in many ways; camouflage, combination of large roundels and low-vis buzz-nos. Bilingual stenciling and on top of it all, the white/green high-vis checkers on the rudder.

(Green and white are the colours of my football team!)

What’s interesting is that the same a/c can be seen later in the thread, in a different configuration with wing–tip tanks. Now with low-wiz checkers on the rudder and painted with FS34086/36152/17178. It also looks like the buzz-no. (01) on the fin has been painted out.

My question is, is the date when the “polipo”-pictures were taken, known? I’m asking because the FS595 colours were introduced 1992 and onwards. Before that only RAL6014/7012/9006 (if I understand it correctly) And from the pics alone it is difficult to see if it is painted in the RAL- or FS-colours.

Any other clues I have missed? When were the small roundels and low-vis buzz.no's introduced?

 

Tomas Enerdal

[Terry1954]

On 10/10/2019 at 8:40 AM, Giorgio N said:

The link that IMHO is most useful is this discussion on an Italian modelling forum:

 

https://www.modelingtime.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17306

Just stumbled upon this thread, and I must say Giorgio, that link has some excellent reference material. At least one of my F-104 stash will end up as an Italian Airforce bird, so very helpful.

 

Terry

[Giorgio N]

2 hours ago, Tomas Enerdal said:

I’m in love!

 

I’ve been studying pics, trying to understand the variations with camouflage and markings.

I have found my candidate, 37-01 in the “polipo” configuration as found here

Interesting in many ways; camouflage, combination of large roundels and low-vis buzz-nos. Bilingual stenciling and on top of it all, the white/green high-vis checkers on the rudder.

(Green and white are the colours of my football team!)

What’s interesting is that the same a/c can be seen later in the thread, in a different configuration with wing–tip tanks. Now with low-wiz checkers on the rudder and painted with FS34086/36152/17178. It also looks like the buzz-no. (01) on the fin has been painted out.

My question is, is the date when the “polipo”-pictures were taken, known? I’m asking because the FS595 colours were introduced 1992 and onwards. Before that only RAL6014/7012/9006 (if I understand it correctly) And from the pics alone it is difficult to see if it is painted in the RAL- or FS-colours.

Any other clues I have missed? When were the small roundels and low-vis buzz.no's introduced?

 

Tomas Enerdal

 

I'll start from the paint scheme: there's something I'm not totally convinced about in the description of the colours used... for a starter, the dark green should be number 28, not 26. 26 is the matt aluminum.

Then there's the matter of the date of AA-M-P 100/d... it's quoted as 1992 in the link but I believe if dates from the early '70s, as revision e is dated 1978... don't know why they mention 1992 as date for the introduction of revision d. Later the same link mentions revision g as dated 1994, that IIRC is correct.

Personally I believe that both aircraft in the picture they show carry the same colours. In any case both RAL 6014 and FS 34086 have a strong brown component and really on a model it would be hard to tell one from another.

 

Then the aircraft... first of all I should mention that unit codes in the Italian air force are not permanently associated with an individual aircraft, therefore the 37-01 seen in one picture may or not be the same of the other picture.

The picture showing green and white checkers is easy to date, as these markings were sure carried in 1993 by MM6798. This aircraft was issued to 37th Stormo in that year so it can't be before May 1993. Unfortunately I can't confirm for how long the coloured checkers were carried, I have read that they were replaced by black  only checkers sometime in 1995 but don't have photographic confirmation. In any case this aircraft was grounded in late 1995. The aircraft took part in a number of airshows in the UK in 1993 and there are several pictures on the web taken at these events, all of course showing the green and white checkers

 

The aircraft shown in the picture below with black or dark grey checkers may actually be an earlier "37-01", could be MM 6760 that carried markings like these in 1988. Now if the picture in the link is indeed dated 1988, then the whole matter of RAL vs. FS numbers must be reformulated, as the aircraft is used in a picture that should show changes occurred in 1992...

 

 

 

[Tomas Enerdal]

Thanks for the help!

To be honest, I hadn't thought about the possibility of finding more than the two pics of 37-01. A google search produced several more! Now I can enjoy the luxury of having several pics of the a/c I'd like to model. I also found the discussion at modellismopiu, interesting and entertaining!

The only problem is that I learnt about the existence of Italian publications about 18 Gr and "Basi e Reparti dell'Aeronautica Militare" as well as Tauro decals for the MM serials. Where to find them?

It seems like the Kinetic kit, together with the Daco set, only looks more and more promising the more I look at them. I believe the Daco F-104S intakes will fit the Kinetic kit just perfectly. Both are just great!

When looking at the camouflage colours of 37-01 I get the feeling that, in some of the pics, the colours of the underwing tanks are a little "warmer/browner" than the rest of the a/c. Indicating RAL-colours for the tanks and FS-colours for the rest of the a/c.

This will be fun!

 

[Tomas Enerdal]

Regarding the RAL- vs. FS-colours.

Yesterday I recieved the new AirDOC publication; Italian Air Force (AMI) F-104G Starfighter. It has a chapter on Camouflage and Markings, which points out, and illustrates with pics, something I had not previously noticed.

When painted with RAL-colours, the demarcation lines between the upper colours are slightly soft/airbrush feathered. Most painted with FS-colours have sharp/hard edged demarcation lines. Those with (slightly) feathered demarcations seem to be sharper that the RAL-painted ones anyway.

Also pointed out is the fact that the drop tanks, both underwing and wingtip, often retained their RAL-colours. This shows as a slightly warmer/browner shade of green, easily seen if you look for it.

 

[bertopinal]

 The RAL colours where used as standard since the middle of the Eighties, the introduction of the FS standard was slow and firts on the new production/refurbished aircraft; with the FS was also introduced the use of plastic mask for the paint, because of that the demarcation lines where sharp.  The chimical composition of the RAL colours was different from that of the successive FS : the green faded in 'brown' and the grey remain more or less the same; with the FS standard the grenn remain the same but the grey faded in a sort of light bluish/grey; the best way remain an accurate study of the pictures.

  As reported, the Unit indivudual number was not permanently assigned, but change following the maintenance life of the plane; usually a Unit want to have in line aircraft with running numbers (1,2,3 etc) not regarding the MM (Matricola Militare - serial number) of the ship; if 37-01 MMxxx1 goes to maintenance, the MMxx11 was numbered 37-01, and so on.

  To find italian books, a good source is Milistoria ( www.milistoria.it); for Tauro decaks see www.prontomodel.com

 

r.

[Tomas Enerdal]

Hi again,

(Slightly hijacking this thread, but I believe it's relevant), it's about the stenciling.

I have bought the Sky Models decal sheet SKY 48-031, Lockheed Aeritalia F/RF/TF 104 G&S.

Like other SKY sets it's very cramped and full of markings. It is printed by Cartograf, and as such simply stunning in all its details and sharpness, PERFECT REGISTER EVERYWHERE!

You need a magnifier for it, but every word can be read in even the smallest of the words, correctly spelled too, when I've been able to compare with pics.

(For the low-vis scheme, the larger stencils are printed in dark gray, the smaller common stencilling is unfortunately in black instead, but I doubt that one would be able to see the difference)

However, the instructions seem a little lacking.

My problems lie in the stencilling, there are several stencils on the decal sheet that are not mentioned in the instructions. 1,2,6,11,12,15,17,18,20,21,23,24,25,etc. A few I've even managed to find in pics, (15 and 20 so far)

It seems like the research is there, the decals have been beautifully made but that the instructions are lacking.

Can info about stenciling be found elsewhere?

TIA,

Tomas 

 

 

[Giorgio N]

I have that decal sheet, will give it a look and check them, I also have Tauromodel's stencils sheet, so I'll check if the instructions for this are of more help.

Keep in mind that stencils on the F-104 can be divided in two types: those specific to the user (like the various rescue markings) and those that are pretty much common to all users. The latter are generally left in English and usually don't vary among users. For these there is one great reference online and is the instruction sheet for the Eduard 1/48 NATO Fighter rebox of the Hasegawa kit

 

https://www.eduard.com/eduard/nato-fighter-1-48.html

 

Just download the pdf file in the language of choice and check the stencils plan. It's very well printed and can be magnified to incredible levels without losing definition.

Of course this is for the F-104G and not the S, most stencils are common though

[Tomas Enerdal]

Wow!

Thanks, Giorgio!

With those instructions I should be able to pinpoint them.

But after a quick initial look I suspect that the Eduard stencils are even more complete than the Sky ones. I could see several on the fin that can be seen on a pic of 37-01, which I cannot find on the Sky sheet. So now I've asked Eduard if they have any left-overs, and I'm hunting on the net for the kit itself...

Thanks again!

Tomas

 

[Giorgio N]

Tomas,

if they are just black stencils then you may consider printing your own. This is what I did on my latest F-104 build as I found that with my cheap laser printer I could easily print stencils that were much thinner than what most manufacturers offer. I recently decided to redraw some of them to get an even more realistic result. I hate oversized stencils as IMHO ruin the look of a model while thin subtle stencils improve it a lot.

[reini]

@Giorgio N Thanks for the link to the Italian forum post laying out the differences between Italian Starfighter versions. It is understandable with Google translate, thanks to good pics. Great information and really got me interested in making more Italian Starfighters! One reason being that I realised what I had one wrong in my first one  😅(like the ventral fin...).

[Muzz]

Reserecting this thread to try and get a definitive FS number for the all grey scheme, just bought the Kinetic boxing which is suggesting FS26270, but I've seen FS26280 suggested and FS26440!

 

Any help appreciated!

 

Muzz

[Giorgio N]

55 minutes ago, Muzz said:

Reserecting this thread to try and get a definitive FS number for the all grey scheme, just bought the Kinetic boxing which is suggesting FS26270, but I've seen FS26280 suggested and FS26440!

 

Any help appreciated!

 

Muzz

 

The all grey scheme is in FS 36280, as per official documents. Linked here is the current list of colours from the Ministry of Defence website, the current amendment was issued years after the F-104 left service however the colour listed in the previous versions of the document was always the same, that is FS 36280

 

https://www.difesa.it/SGD-DNA/Staff/DT/ARMAEREO/Biblioteca/5Categoria/Documents/AER_EP_M_P_100.pdf

 

Many modelling articles have suggested in the past the use of FS 36270 for the reason that paints representing FS 36280 were not available in the catalogue of the various model paint suppliers. Today both Mr. Paint and Lifecolor have this in their ranges but I can see how these may not be easily available everywhere

Other sources just mentioned whatever they thought was closer without bothering to check the proper documents.

 

 

[Muzz]

Many thanks for your reply Giorgio.👍 I can get hold of MRP pretty easily.

 

Muzz