A B17 from Sweden (SAAB that is )

[Grandboof]

Evening All 

Here is my addition to this pond . It will be built OOB as a S17BS . The start if be a little ways off  as I have to try and finish up other GB commitments on time . Anyway here are the pics 

Regards Martin H

[Courageous]

Brilliant. I have recently 'stocked' such a machine into my stash for a future build, will be interesting to see it turns out.

 

Stuart

[jrlx]

Hi Martin!

 

Welcome to the GB! Interesting choice, another type I didn't know existed!

 

Good luck!

 

Jaime

 

 

[Grandboof]

Hi All 

Just a few little steps with this . Parts fit is surprising good for a limited run kit . The instructions however require careful reading . Some of the colour calls are suspect . Humbrol 30 for the upper surfaces for one . Comments as always are welcome .

Martin H 

[Troy Smith]

24 minutes ago, Grandboof said:

Some of the colour calls are suspect . Humbrol 30 for the upper surfaces for one . Comments as always are welcome .

 

AFAIK, the colours are standard Swedish colours, so what goes for the J21 will go for the B17...

HTH

[Grandboof]

Thanks for that Troy That helps

Martin H

[Torbjorn]

The seaplane version was painted differently than the dive bomber: either black green or grey green. I’m unsure if this goes for all examples.

 

 

Here’s some flight camera footage for the last flying B17(in the regular olive green though):

yoitube

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Torbjorn

[Courageous]

Looks like we're going to have fun with paints for this build, inside and out...

 

Stuart

[Troy Smith]

7 hours ago, Torbjorn said:

The seaplane version was painted differently than the dive bomber: either black green or grey green. I’m unsure if this goes for all examples.

perhaps we need to stick some notifications to some of our Swedish members

@Christer A, @Andre B  I know there are more,  but can't remember who they are right now, as Swedish Seaplanes are out of my area of knowledge,

the chart here

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_sweden.htm

does list a black green, but seems to be for trainers..

[Torbjorn]

9 hours ago, Courageous said:

Looks like we're going to have fun with paints for this build, inside and out...

 

Stuart

I can only relay second-hand info as I have no book on this subject. From skimming through Swedish fora (modellbygge.ifokus.se) I found the following:

 

The seaplanes were first painted in a standardised blackgreen color (W84) but the F2 unit was not pleased and mixed up their own paint in 1948, by mixing 6/10 black with the regular olivegreen. This was later standardised too, as W338, apparently a tad darker than FS24086. All this was taken from Kronmärkt, by Leif Hellström.

 

W is for Wedevåg by the way, an old ironworks from the 1500s that started making paints around 1900 - I have not seen any colour charts. They were making paints for the aero industry since its beginnings.

 

 

The insides were painted zink chromate (SAAB employed American advisors ) or left in metal (canopy frames among other things). The IP was black. The film I posted show the insides of the restored example.

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Torbjorn

[Christer A]

What Torbjörn says is true. F2 devised their own mix, called ubåtsfärg, which they mixed from the standard olive green with black, in the 40% / 60% ratio.

At home I have both the B17 book and Kronmärkt, so I can have another look at that later on.

[Grandboof]

Thanks all for your help This is going to be a learning curve. Fun though 

Martin H

[Courageous]

8 hours ago, Torbjorn said:

The insides were painted zink chromate

Interesting...

So, the upper surfaces pre-1948, were blackgreen (W84) and after that, olive green with black, in the 40% / 60% ratio (W338). What would be the model paints to reflect these?

What about undersides colours?

 

Stuart

[Torbjorn]

16 minutes ago, Courageous said:

Interesting...

So, the upper surfaces pre-1948, were blackgreen (W84) and after that, olive green with black, in the 40% / 60% ratio (W338). What would be the model paints to reflect these?

What about undersides colours?

 

Stuart

I’ll let Christian pull out his source books, at least Kronmärkt I believe contains comparisons with Anglo-or-American standards.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Torbjorn

[Andre B]

18 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

perhaps we need to stick some notifications to some of our Swedish members

@Christer A, @Andre B  I know there are more,  but can't remember who they are right now, as Swedish Seaplanes are out of my area of knowledge,

the chart here

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_sweden.htm

does list a black green, but seems to be for trainers..

Hi,

 

What I remember (and Torbjörn and Christer  also said) those seaplanes where repainted in a colour called "ubåtsfärg" (submarinepaint) or  probably "ubåtsgrå" (submarinegrey). But I had to find my book to check it...

 

There is an instruktion given of 40% olivegreen and 60% black (Swedish colours). One suggestion to get this shade is  to blend 50% Revell 66 (dark olive drab) with 50% Humbrol 32 (darkgrey) to get this kind of dark, greenish grey. But some people feels that it is to "green".

 

The underside was probably "ljust blågrå". The best shade for this is usually said to be Humbrol  Hu 87. Check the Hu 87 so it really is bluegrey and not bluegreen as Humbrol hade some problems with paints and shades...

 

Cheers / André

Edited November 5, 2019 by Andre B

[AdrianMF]

Colour conundrums indeed! I’m sure it will look lovely painted in a [dark] browny-green over light blue! Looking forward to it.

 

Regards,

Adrian

[Grandboof]

Hi All ,

Thanks again Everyone . What I have found so far seem to show the upper surfaces being like Ocean Grey with a greenish tinge . But these are colour profiles . Not sure that I can post them here because of copyright . Will try some experiments starting with the Dark Olive Drab / Dark Grey that Andre suggested .  Humbrol 116 seems like an option for experiments as well. More soon 

Martin H 

[Courageous]

22 hours ago, Andre B said:

There is an instruktion given of 40% olivegreen and 60% black (Swedish colours). One suggestion to get this shade is  to blend 50% Revell 66 (dark olive drab) with 50% Humbrol 32 (darkgrey) to get this kind of dark, greenish grey. But some people feels that it is to "green".

...I don't like mixing paint . 

 

Stuart

[Grandboof]

Hi All 

Just checked back on the kit call outs and there is a Submarine Grey given as Humbrol 144 but no explanation as to its use. A closer look at the colour profiles show the Seaplane in a slightly greyish tinge . More grey than green . The plan is to make up a set of swatches and see how it goes from there . I should be able to paint the interior tomorrow 

Martin H

[Andre B]

On 11/7/2019 at 10:57 AM, Grandboof said:

Hi All 

Just checked back on the kit call outs and there is a Submarine Grey given as Humbrol 144 but no explanation as to its use. A closer look at the colour profiles show the Seaplane in a slightly greyish tinge . More grey than green . The plan is to make up a set of swatches and see how it goes from there . I should be able to paint the interior tomorrow 

Martin H

Mmm...

Afraid that Humbrol 144 is somewhat "intermediate blue". Rather far away from what the dark greygreen on the Swedish seaplanes was painted with...

 

Cheers / André

[Christer A]

Hello again.

Now I had had the time to start looking properly in my references.

All B17, be it bombers, recon or floatplanes had their underside painted light bluegray.

This was W26 before 1948, which is supposedly slightly greener than FS36176 (according to Kronmärkt that is)

http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=36176

 

Humbrol Hu87 was a good match back in the days, how the current ones matches I have no idea.

Either you match directly to FS36176 and be happy with that, or trying your own mix starting with Tamiya XF-66 as suggested by the IPMS Stockholm color site:

https://www.ipmsstockholm.se/home/urbans-color-reference-charts-part-i/urbans-colour-reference-charts-sweden/

Years ago, I used a Xtracrylix FS36176 bottle for a J21 that I was building (also W26 on the bottom) and I was quite happy with that (sadly, no pictures exist of it)

Now, I'd probably use MrPaint Swedish colors (Blågrå 058) and be happy with that.

 

As for the top side, the story goes like this:

First, Flygflottilj F2mixed their won color from Olivegreen W25 with 60% black in it.

This was later on standardized as W84.

W25 Olivgrön is very close to FS34079 (just add 60% black...)

W84 Svartgrå (Blackgrey) which supposedly is slightly darker than FS34031

 

http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=34079

 

http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=34031

 

The camouflage at this time would then be

http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=36176+34031

 

If they repainted the aircraft after §948, they'd used the new colors which are 058H Blågrå (bluegrey) for the underside and 338H Mörkt grågrön (Dark green-gray)

H stands for Halvblank (satin)

058H is slightly darker than FS 36329

338H is darker than FS 34086

 

This looks like this

http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=36329+34086

Which is totally different than the old Widevåg colors!

 

 

Worth noting is off course the old story where a bunch of IPMS members went to the Swedish Air Force Paint supplier and actually mixed the colors to the correct specs according to the actual documentation.

However, the people doing the actual work there just shooked their heads, muttering that they were NEVER this precise when making the actual paint batches...

 

[Grandboof]

Hi All 

Firstly I didn't get the interior painted because the spray gun wasn't playing nice . Much cleaning and muttering later it seems to be OK now .

Andre . Had a look at a tin of Humbrol 144 appears like PR blue so it is eliminated .

Christer. Thanks for the links most helpful . Will start experimenting . More soon 

Martin H

[JWM]

I did this model some plus 10 years ago, it is not bad to do. 

The Swedish colours are like those on another SAAB (B18)

 

Cheers

J-W

[Christer A]

That B18 is a replica made mostly from a wreck IIRC. It was made some time during the 80s for a TV mini series and then donated to the Flygvapenmuseum.

It's the only example of a B18 in existance though, so one can't be too picky.

I wouldn't use it as a reference for how a S17BS was painted though

[JWM]

10 minutes ago, Christer A said:

That B18 is a replica made mostly from a wreck IIRC. It was made some time during the 80s for a TV mini series and then donated to the Flygvapenmuseum.

It's the only example of a B18 in existance though, so one can't be too picky.

I wouldn't use it as a reference for how a S17BS was painted though

Undertood, however I think in museum, moreover in a Swedish museum, they do paint airplane under some serious constideration about colours used..

For example after years of being green in Krakow Museum of Aviation the PZL P 11 is now painted brown, due to latest research on Polish pre-war colours.

Previous colours

current:

 

Cheers 

J-W