Smithy Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 Another Jug question in preparation for my P-47 build... The leather headrest is usually shown in brown leather but was black sometimes used? The reason I ask is although black and white, in a photo of the actual aircraft I am modelling the headrest looks very, very dark. Any help much appreciated. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackson Duvalier Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 I've wrestled with this myself. I've seen and built models with both, and also fudged the matter by representing "black worn to brown." I suspect that 1) there was a specification, and 2) it was ignored in favor of whatever leather was available at the moment. As always, refer to photos, blah blah, etc. 😉 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted October 5, 2019 Author Share Posted October 5, 2019 (edited) Thanks Jackson, I'm leaning towards black. I may as well post one of the photos of the aircraft I'm going to model, Gentile's "Donnie Boy". Interested to hear others' takes on what colour they think that headrest might be... Edited October 5, 2019 by Smithy Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted October 5, 2019 Author Share Posted October 5, 2019 And another one from Donnie Boy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackson Duvalier Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 Ooh, tasty subject! What kit/scale? I'd go with worn black based on the photos you've shared. The metal surrounding the headrest looks awfully light. I've built a couple of -C model P-47s using a yellow zinc chromate as the interior colour. An unconventional choice, yes, but I've seen some reference to it and B&W photos of early P-47 interiors look far lighter than any of the interior greens I'm aware of. Also it's an interesting contrast to all the other P-47 models out there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted October 5, 2019 Author Share Posted October 5, 2019 1/48 Tamiya Jackson with the SuperScale decals. I have quite a large interest in the 4th FG so really looking forward to this. I'll start a WIP thread when I get underway, hopefully tomorrow all things considered! One other thing which is leading me to black is that Gentile's A-2 jacket is in "seal" coloured leather - dark chocolate colour, and not "russet" the other colour which A-2s were issued in, and you can see how light it's showing in the sunlight. I think it's not a bad bet that the headrest is black leather considering the contrast from Gentile's seal A-2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silberpferd Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 I'd go with black Laurent 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted October 5, 2019 Author Share Posted October 5, 2019 I'm sold, black it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 I vaguely recall reading about the A2 leather flight jackets used in WW2, that the cowhide jackets were a dark brown treated leather and the goatskin jackets were almost black. Might that also be the case regarding the leather headrests fitted to many WW2 USAAF/USN types? I know I have seen black headrests on F6F and F4U seat bulkheads in photos. Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted October 5, 2019 Author Share Posted October 5, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, 72modeler said: I vaguely recall reading about the A2 leather flight jackets used in WW2, that the cowhide jackets were a dark brown treated leather and the goatskin jackets were almost black. Might that also be the case regarding the leather headrests fitted to many WW2 USAAF/USN types? I know I have seen black headrests on F6F and F4U seat bulkheads in photos. Mike A-2s depending on contract came in horse, goat and steer hide.The original specifications were for horse and goat hides, the use of cow/steer has only recently been confirmed by DNA testing. The nature of the hide had nothing to do with what colour they were. A lot of it had to do with the maker, although later contracts tended to use seal rather than russet hides. I have a bit of an interest and collect WWII flying jackets and kit through my job so excuse the trainspotterish observations! Edited October 5, 2019 by Smithy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackson Duvalier Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 24 minutes ago, Smithy said: excuse the trainspotterish observations! Uh, isn't that what we're all here for? 😄 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted October 6, 2019 Author Share Posted October 6, 2019 12 hours ago, Jackson Duvalier said: The metal surrounding the headrest looks awfully light. I've built a couple of -C model P-47s using a yellow zinc chromate as the interior colour. An unconventional choice, yes, but I've seen some reference to it and B&W photos of early P-47 interiors look far lighter than any of the interior greens I'm aware of. Also it's an interesting contrast to all the other P-47 models out there! That's one thing which is bothering me. Although it's full sunlight the interior colour does look rather light and matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 17 hours ago, silberpferd said: I'd go with black Based on this excellent color photo, I totally agree! Where in the world did you get this photo? I also noticed two things unrelated to this topic discussion but thrashed in previous discussions; firstly, the untinted zinc chromate on the canopy track, and secondly, judging by the paint on the windscreen framework, the coves behind the canopy appear to be finished in the same OD paint, not the dull dark green of the cockpit as seen by the armor plate behind the seat! Dana Bell rules! 😜 Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silberpferd Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 3 hours ago, 72modeler said: Where in the world did you get this photo? Those pictures were save from an ebay auction back in 2017. It was a lot of about 12 pictures from the 371st Fighter Group. Laurent 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted October 6, 2019 Author Share Posted October 6, 2019 Laurent, is there any chance that you have copies of the other photos and could post them? Those two above are remarkably good quality and the colours very true to life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted October 6, 2019 Author Share Posted October 6, 2019 Had a bit of a sniff around on the internet and found this page with those brilliant 371st FG photos: https://forgottennowfound.com/2018/07/25/371st-fighter-group/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silberpferd Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 The pictures in your link are the same that were on the Ebay auctions. Here there are in higher resolution. Laurent 4 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted October 6, 2019 Author Share Posted October 6, 2019 They really are excellent, thanks Laurent. The interior cockpit colour in the first photo with the fellow in the B-10 jacket is really intriguing. Looks very similar to Humbrol 30 which I've been playing around with for my build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 48 minutes ago, Jordi said: I have an original WWII goatskin A2 that belonged to my great uncle Good for you, Jordi! I would have gotten my Dad's, who was a B-29 navigator in WW2, but he said my Mom made him get rid of it because by the mid-fifties it looked awful, and she said it was falling apart...it's a guy and aviator thing, I guess. He did buy me an A2 several years ago as a Christmas gift that was made to the original specs by one of the same suppliers that made them for the USAAF. Hang on to your great-uncle's jacket- it's a treasure. Here's a link to the history of the U.S. leather flight jackets that you might find interesting. Mike https://www.heddels.com/2017/11/american-flight-jackets-from-1927-to-1950-the-complete-guide-2/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 Beauty photos, Laurent, thanks for posting them. As an aside, does anyone know what was used to plug the ends of the blast tubes? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plumbum Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 My D&S book shows 2 color images quite large, The bubble top is a black head rest and the razor back is red brown head rest. HTH---John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsairfoxfouruncle Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 (edited) On the two P-47’s “Dottie” & “Black-Jack” there is something mounted forward and below the canopies ? Is that a rear view mirror housing ? If so Ive never seen one in that position before. Usually on top or just inside the top rim of the canopy is where I've seen them. And in fact both of those planes also have the high mounted mirrors, now I'm really confused ? Dennis Edited October 7, 2019 by Corsairfoxfouruncle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted October 7, 2019 Author Share Posted October 7, 2019 6 hours ago, Jordi said: I have an original WWII goatskin A2 that belonged to my great uncle, and it's a deep chestnut brown, but nowhere near black. Sadly it is in fairly sad shape, but it has a family connection. The main thing Jordi is to consolidate any decay and rot, especially if it has developed red rot. If you like I can send you a PM with a couple of products which will do this and allow you to display the jacket without fear of it deteriorating further. These are museum grade solutions that the technical conservator at our aviation museum here uses. There is enormous variance in hide colour with A-2s even though technically two shades were specified, russet and seal. They can range from a very light brown colour right up to a very, very dark brown with some of the later Rough Wear and Aero contracts and especially the depot redyes. Definitely look after that A-2 as it's an important part of your family's history. You can't overstate how important the A-2 was for an American WWII aviator and how it was for your great uncle, it was more like a badge that proudly said "I've made it, I am a flyboy". More than one airman said, "It's like wearing your airplane." That's why many airmen keep using them long after the arrival of the B-10s and B-15s jackets. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 6 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said: Is that a rear view mirror housing ? Yep, it is, Dennis. Fairly common on razorback Thunderbolts, and oftentimes in addition to the one mounted on top of the windscreen arch. Mike 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS_w Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 20 hours ago, dogsbody said: Beauty photos, Laurent, thanks for posting them. As an aside, does anyone know what was used to plug the ends of the blast tubes? Chris It was a disk in paper base phenolic or parafined cardboard, dia: 1.382" and thickness 1/32" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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