B-25 C/D Mysteries

[Jackson Duvalier]

I'm getting close to priming an Airfix B-25 C/D which I plan to finish with the included markings for 41-30409, "Lady Jane."  There are a few ambiguities with the surface detailing on the wings and upper fuselage.  I attempted to resolve these questions by referring to the references at hand, as well as Accurate Miniatures' superb early B-25.  Unfortunately these efforts only deepened the befuddlement.

 

Airfix molded the deicer boot margin as a soft raised line which should easily sand off to depict an aircraft with the boots removed.  The only photo I've found of 41-30409 shows no evidence of them, it did operate in Florida after all.  This photo shows the white underside paint extending up the leading edges of the wings and stabilizers contrary to the Airfix colour profile, unfortunately I've no top photos to refer to so topside paintwork will be conjectural.  I suspect the Medium Green blotches shown on the profile were not there IRL.  Comparison of Airfix and AM plastic with the dodgy Detail and Scale plans reveal no consensus regarding upper wing details.  I've no plans for major rework of a substantially completed model, but I would like to know for curiosity's sake.

 

More vexing are the sheet metal applique atop the fuselage, fore and aft of the turret.  I understand these were to prevent damage from muzzle blast when the guns were fired at low angles, but haven't found any details as to where or when these were added, or if they were factory-installed across all subtypes.  Accurate Miniatures chose to omit them from their tooling (this may be an artifact of their fuselage's origins as a B-25B), Airfix did not.  The photos I've found suggest they were generally installed, so I've left them for now.  However, the forward sheet appears to be pinning down a hatch which I presume represents a life raft compartment, but I've found no ironclad confirmation.  My guess is that if extra sheet metal was applied over a hatch cover, it would have been in sections to allow normal operation and molding limitations precluded Airfix from depicting the upper edge.  Examining more photos may provide me an answer but my hat is off to anyone that knows for sure.

 

I ask these questions knowing full well nobody else will likely notice once the model is painted, and I will probably forget about it myself in six months or so.  Off to rummage through some photos in hopes that'll shed some light.  Cheers!

[72modeler]

Jackson,

 

Looking at my copy of B-25 Mitchell- the Ultimate Look, by William Wolf, I found the following description/s related to your post:

 

On the B-25B/C/D there was no armor plate fitted either in front of or behind the dorsal turret; on the B-25G, armor plate was installed on the upper fuselage aft of the turret.  There was no escape hatch on the upper fuselage except above the nose compartment and pilot's canopy; there was an escape hatch aft of the wing on the stbd. side of the fuselage. Regarding the dorsal turret, on the B-25B/C/D/G, there were limit switches built into the turret traverse/azimuth mechanisms to interrupt the fire of the turret guns when the upper fuselage and stabilizers were within the field of fire. On the B-25H/J models with the forward mounted dorsal turret, in addition to these mechanisms, there were two deflector plates (The bumps you see in photos.) fitted to prevent gunfire into the upper aft  fuselage. I hope this helps. Looks like maybe Airfix is possibly contemplating the release of a B-25G at some point, which would account for the armor plate aft of the turret on their B-25B/C/D kits, and according to the Wolf book, there was none fitted forward of the turret, but the turret dome did have a curved armor plate fitted behind the gunner's head beginning with the B-25G.

Mike

[Jackson Duvalier]

This fabulous picture is a goldmine. 

 

B-25Ds under construction at the Kansas City plant.  It's a Wikimedia Commons image and so ought to be kosher to repost-- follow the link to embiggen.  I've seen it before but it wasn't immediately relevant at the time.  Acre after acre of retina-searing zinc chromate goodness!  The forward applique plates are clearly multipart affairs with a split to allow the mystery compartment to open.  Detail is best seen on airframe Number 85, just to the left of the starboard fin of the foreground plane.

 

23 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

On the B-25B/C/D there was no armor plate fitted either in front of or behind the dorsal turret

I must respectfully dispute that said plates were "armor."  Reinforcing appliques are clearly visible fore and aft of the turret in many many contemporary photos of -C/D model B-25s-- for instance the above link.  I'm pretty sure they were to protect the airframe from outgoing fire, not incoming.  So not "armor" per se.  Many thanks for the information and your time; I think we aren't disagreeing so much as refining the terminology?  😎

[72modeler]

I have a color factory photo taken at the Kansas City  plant during the war that shows a pretty female factory worker in a red sweater sitting on top of a Mitchell loading .50 cal ammunition belts into a B-25C/D upper turret; the Mitchell has the red surround to the national insignia, which dates the photo to a short time period in 1943. You can clearly see the rectangular panel aft of the turret and it is flush with the fuselage skin, so is clearly not applique armor or a reinforcement panel.   I have also attached  links to  photos  of  early Mitchells  that show the same area, but I don't see any external armor plate aft of the turret location. In the color  factory photo posted above, it doesn't look to me like that panel aft of the turret is proud of the fuselage skin.  In the Wolf book, there are two factory diagrams that show the locations of  armor plate fitted to B-25's, and there is no external armor plate in that location.  Doesn't look like a reinforcement plate to me; the reinforcement plate fitted to Lancaster Mk X's that had the Martin .50cal turret comes to mind, but they sit proud of the fuselage skin. No big deal- when I get my Airfix kit in the build queue, I will do more serious research on the subject. Hope these photos are helpful.

Mike

 

https://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/kansas-city-b-25-factory-180951624/

 

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/aircrafts-2-3/b-25-mitchell/b-25-mitchell-wreck-pacific/

 

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/aircrafts-2-3/b-25-mitchell/at-24-advanced-trainer-b-25-42-87294/

 

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/aircrafts-2-3/b-25-mitchell/b-25-mitchell-bombers-in-flight-formation-42-53400/

 

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by 72modeler
corrected spelling

[Jackson Duvalier]

Here are some photographs detailing the apparently illusory gubbins discussed in the original post.  Which (for the third time) I never said were armor plate.  I'm pretty sure I didn't imply they were present on every B-25 C/D airframe, either, least I didn't mean to imply such.

             

I spent several valuable modeling hours reviewing references, then relearning to work the scanner (after finding all the relevant bits that got scattered in the recent house move) and figuring out how to edit and post photos,  I should thank you for providing the boost I needed, now I can participate more fully in the Britmodeller fora. 😄

 

All images cropped and modified from published archival images under Fair Use blah blah blah. 

 

 

 

InkedB-25C1_LI by Jackson Duvalier, on Flickr

 

See those shaded lines the green arrows are pointing to?  One aft of the turret, and one forward,

 

InkedB-25C4_LI by Jackson Duvalier, on Flickr

 

I've circled the relevant areas here.  The extreme enlargement of a small photo don't do it no favors, but it looks to me like there's something going on there.  But certainly not thin sheet metal scabbed over exposed joints in the skin proper.

 

InkedB-25C5_LI by Jackson Duvalier, on Flickr

 

Similar shot but a bit crisper.  There are distinct lines evident in the exact place the additional panels I asked about would have been-- had they existed.

 

InkedB-25C7_LI by Jackson Duvalier, on Flickr

 

Quite distinct in this case, circled in red-- looks almost as if a slightly raised applique panel was casting a shadow.  Maybe highlighting and countershading airbrushed in by the censor to fool spies?

 

InkedB-25C8_LI by Jackson Duvalier, on Flickr

 

Here we see more outlines that seem quite prominent for something that I'm imagining.  Notice that the anomaly forward of the turret has a bit of a dog leg to it? Almost as if it were cut out to allow a hatch located beneath and to the left of it to open?  Maybe to allow external access to something.  But clearly a hatch in that location wouldn't be accessible by the crew unless the plane was sinking!

 

InkedB-25C2_LI by Jackson Duvalier, on Flickr

 

Here's a look from the starboard side.  My hallucinations are circled in green.

 

B-25C11 by Jackson Duvalier, on Flickr

 

Not much to see in this overexposed, overenlarged image...

 

B-25C11 by Jackson Duvalier, on Flickr

 

...but with a bit more enlargement we see some shaded lines forward of the turret.  Look there just aft of the antenna mast-- is that a bit of step?!?!?  Can't be.  Unpossible.

 

InkedB-25C6_LI by Jackson Duvalier, on Flickr

 

This is cropped from the old In Action volume on the B-25.  The draughtsman has chosen to ink in some lines in exactly the same places Airfix (at great cost) mistakenly tooled in spurious appliques on a new tool B-25 kit based on LIDAR scanning.  Silly Airfix!

 

InkedB-25C9_LI by Jackson Duvalier, on Flickr

 

I know, I know, one never implicitly trusts a profile alone.  But it does seem curious that the artist chose to thrice replicate panels that are so definitely not externally applied reinforcement in places there wouldn't otherwise be a panel line.

 

I don't normally start threads over baseless phantasmagoria.   I notice 300 odd views at this point-- anyone able to shed some light please chime in.  What are these things I perceive and why are they even there?  Am I the only one that sees this?  Why have Airfix tooled them in if, as Mister Wolf's Ultimate Reference so reliably informs us, they were not present?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[72modeler]

Jackson,

 

Like you, I really don't think those panels forward and aft of the dorsal turret on B-25B/C/D Mitchells were either armor plate or reinforced panels, especially after I re-read your comments. I went back to the William Wolf B-25 book, which is regarded as the most comprehensive and detailed reference work on the B-25, and after re-reading each section and looking at all the photos, (Took a while, as it's a 470 page book!) I think that both panels shown in the photos and  drawings you posted as well as the ones I posted and the ones in the Wolf book are access panels. The one forward of the turret is above where one of the life rafts was contained, which sure would account for the dogleg-shaped panel you described and illustrated. From the diagrams and text in the book, it appears that oxygen tanks were housed in the upper fuselage aft of the dorsal turret, which would seem to account for that access panel. I think, and it's just my opinion, that the panels you circled in red on the photo you posted, are not shadows caused by a raised panel, but traces of the original OD paint, as the photo seems to show a Mitchell re-painted in desert sand- the photo is pretty washed out, but the color profile you posted also seems to show the same thing. According to the Wolf book, armor was added beginning with the B-25G aft of the turret, but I don't think it was external or applique, as I didn't really see any evidence of it in any of the photos of B-25G's that I examined. There are so few preserved C/D model B-25's out there to examine, unfortunately. I have the Airfix B-25C/D kit, and will check it again to see how those panels are molded- if they are raised, I will most likely sand them down to be flush or maybe just a tad proud of the surrounding skin, as if these panels were removed and replaced a lot, they most likely wouldn't fit back as precisely as when they came from the factory. Thanks for the excellent material in your post; it will sure come in handy when building any early B-25! 

Mike

 

Is this a great hobby or what?

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Hello Mike and Jackson... I know this is a B-25 B and maybe its not the same.

https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/Museum-Exhibits/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/196310/north-american-b-25b-mitchell/

 

However if you look at the virtual tour of the radio operators station, and the tail gunner station. You will get inside looks of the areas fore and aft of the upper turret. Maybe there is something there that might help maybe not. Or you can tell me to take a long hike and stuff it. 
 

Dennis

[gingerbob]

In this North American manual, page 109 (actual manual page- Avialogs p.113), you can just see the front edge of a panel (assuming that to the left is aft).  There's a hard-to-read label that says "gun blast protection plate".

(Note: there is not a corresponding label forward (the pic may not cover enough fuselage to show it) but there IS a label that says "fuselage cover plates" and that it is referred to in text, but I didn't go looking.)

 

p.s. Jackson, I don't think there's any need for the thick sarcasm on your last post.  People have been kind enough to investigate your question (well, one of them, at least!) and present what they could find/ interpret.  Just because some think differently or express it differently than you doesn't mean that they're worthy of derision.

Edited October 8, 2019 by gingerbob

[Jackson Duvalier]

I think (hope) Mike took it in the spirit it was offered in, Bob-- I've made a third career as a chef and our habitual mode of communication is a bit more... direct than usual on internet fora.  I formally apologise for any ruffled feathers.

 

In any case this contretemps motivated me to get squared away WRT image sharing, for which I'm thankful.  Now I can subject you lot to what passes for my modeling.  😉  

 

Back to the Mitchells: there remains the question of which aircraft were so modified.  As Mike mentioned above there is substantial photo evidence that some portion of  B-25C/D production did not receive additional stuff around the turret.  Was this an earlier vs. later thing, or did it vary according to specific production runs?  It would be of interest to the modeler if this could be determined by serial number since the additional sheet metal isn't always apparent in pictures.  Factors like photographic grain, light conditions at the time the photo was taken, or the angle from which the photo was taken may obscure such a minor modification even when present on the actual aircraft.

[BS_w]

These are "gun blast",  plate in stainless (0.020") over a pad made in molded sponge rubber(3/16)
the stainless sheet had roll edge (3/32 height)

Edited October 8, 2019 by BS_w

[Peter Roberts]

The North American Manual in the link posted by gingerbob also shows a blast plate for the ventral turret; new to me that one (thanks for the link!)

 

A search of the Hyperscale forums will also give further info on this and other details of the B25.

 

PR

[BS_w]

from technical drawings C & D models, gun blast lower turret front and rear plates .019

[72modeler]

BS_w,

 

Wow! Great reference photos, but I think Jackson's question was about the panels/hatches forward and aft of the dorsal turret on the early Mitchells, not the ventral turret. Wish I had your reference library!

Mike

[BS_w]

forward

 

 

[72modeler]

BS_w,

 

That last photo shows those panels that Jackson was asking about better than any other I have seen! Wonder why those panels are flush with the surrounding fuselage skin in so many photos? (Sweet mystery of life!) Way to go! 👍

Mike

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

2 hours ago, 72modeler said:

Wonder why those panels are flush with the surrounding fuselage skin in so many photos? (Sweet mystery of life!)

Possibly puttied for aerodynamics ? 

[72modeler]

Nah- I don't think they used sealers for hatches and inspection panels in WW2 Dennis, I think that's a much  more modern practice; if sealer was used, I would think it would fill the gaps between the panel and surrounding surface and not be proud of it. The two early B-25's I have on my to-do list both have photos that show the panels flush, so not a concern for me. One is the Tokyo Raider 'Ruptured Duck.' flown by Ted Lawson, 40-2261, and the other one is a very plain and weathered , but often-photographed B-25C, 41-12823, which was the 219th C model built, IIRC.  

Mike

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-north-american-b-25c-mitchell-sn-41-12823-177016469.html