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Aardvark

Litvyak "White Rose of Stalingrad" future movie

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Let's hope there will be a version with English sub titles, it is a great story, let's hope the movie is worthy of it.

Steve.

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2 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Let's hope there will be a version with English sub titles, it is a great story, let's hope the movie is worthy of it.

Steve.

Hopfully i think there will be subtitles,i've got White Tiger and a couple of other Russian war films and they all have them....Just as long as it isn't dubbed into English....

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11 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Let's hope there will be a version with English sub titles, it is a great story, let's hope the movie is worthy of it.

 

8 hours ago, Vince1159 said:

Hopfully i think there will be subtitles,i've got White Tiger and a couple of other Russian war films and they all have them....Just as long as it isn't dubbed into English....

"Litvyak" it's movie from the creators

  "28 Panfilov's man":

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panfilov's_28_Men

 

As many film critics note, from the point of view of the "rivet counter" the film "Litvyak" will be at the highest level of reliability, but war movie it's not only "rivet", it's a story & plot.  Will the filmmakers manage to make a good plot, there are some doubts.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

P.S.

8 hours ago, Vince1159 said:

White Tiger

I think David Lynch and his "Twin Peaks" were very much influenced on Karen Shahnazarov, director "White Tiger" movie.

 

P.P.S. Lidiya Litvyak was shot down over the Donbass and buried in a mass grave which is located in 99,6 km from Donetsk.

 

Edited by Aardvark

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On 9/27/2019 at 5:37 PM, Aardvark said:

As many film critics note, from the point of view of the "rivet counter" the film "Litvyak" will be at the highest level of reliability, but war movie it's not only "rivet", it's a story & plot.  Will the filmmakers manage to make a good plot, there are some doubts.

 

After seeing most latest Russian war-epics, I also have my doubts. Plot-wise, 90% of their movie production nowadays are just shallow melodrama schlock; over-saturated with CGI, out-of-period Instagram-babes and propaganda.

Look no further than "Stalingrad" (2013), where most "action scenes" (although technically well executed) convey no true emotion whatsoever about the true scale of events and the suffering of all involved.

And some scenes, like Soviet soldiers running towards nazi MGs WHILE ON FIRE, or those two people managing to move themselves away from the path of a slo-mo grenade, are just... well, dumb.

 

Don't get me started on that ship scene at the end of "Battle of Sevastopol" (2015), or its "love aspect"...

 

That said, I would also love to see the Litvyak story done in a respectful and intelligent manner.

 

 

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On 9/30/2019 at 11:06 AM, warhawk said:

After seeing most latest Russian war-epics, I also have my doubts. Plot-wise, 90% of their movie production nowadays are just shallow melodrama schlock; over-saturated with CGI, out-of-period Instagram-babes and propaganda.

No good plot. Good plot no because no good education. No good education because children see movie with bad plot were many 3-d, action but no plot! Children grow up becoming directors and make films with a bad plot. Vicious circle.

 Hypertrophied?  Yes of course!  But the general meaning of the process is somewhere like this. It's global trend.

On 9/30/2019 at 11:06 AM, warhawk said:

Look no further than "Stalingrad" (2013), where most "action scenes" (although technically well executed) convey no true emotion whatsoever about the true scale of events and the suffering of all involved.

And some scenes, like Soviet soldiers running towards nazi MGs WHILE ON FIRE, or those two people managing to move themselves away from the path of a slo-mo grenade, are just... well, dumb.

 Fedor Bondarchuk? 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fyodor_Bondarchuk

this is the case when the proverb "Nature rests on the children of geniuses" justifies itself by all 146%!

See article about his father Sergei Bondarchuk:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Bondarchuk

and You understand my!

Best actor work (not director) Fedor Bondarchuk was

Myshkin in Down House: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_House_(film) modern adaptation "Idiot" Fedor Dostoevsky, 

but there actually Bondarchuk Jr. played himself.

Do you really think that such a director would have a good film about Stalingrad?

In fact most Russian movie have plot from......old Soviet movie but without Soviet ideology, socialism any mention of Lenin / Stalin pluses political correctness.....as a result of the Lark :

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lark_(1965_film)

turns T-34:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34_(film)

From blackish, absurd and deceitful "Afghan Breakdown"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Breakdown

even more deceitful, idiotic (but without large-scale battle scenes)

"Leaving Afghanistan"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaving_Afghanistan

e.t.c.

I am waiting with horror when they will replace  my beloved, and probably the best (but absolutely no modern) Soviet film about 2WW Soviet pilots "Torpedo bombers" (1983):

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Торпедоносцы_(фильм)

Attack convoy: 

Movie.The end:

 

B.R.

Serge

 

 

Edited by Aardvark

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On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 1:22 PM, Vince1159 said:

What's that....

It's a place where everything is possible but reality.

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New video. Movie w.i.p.:

Story about making cockpit Yak-1 for this move. In video autor talk only about two found live Yak-1 in world on Zadorozhniy museum & Saratov museum.  

In my opinion he is mistaken, it seems to me another Yak-1 is being restored in the UK?

Otherwise, the video is understandable and without translation.

 

B.R.

Serge

Edited by Aardvark

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I have to wonder how they'll treat her- legend is never reality, and from what I've read, she was not universally popular among her fellow pilots, regardless of their sex.

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14 hours ago, Rob G said:

I have to wonder how they'll treat her- legend is never reality, and from what I've read, she was not universally popular among her fellow pilots, regardless of their sex.

At the beginning of the video, this guy said: “We thought that Soviet planes were not German tanks, there are Soviet planes in every museum. Then we found out that there were only two live Yak-1s!”  Those,  they did not even know the real state of affairs with the safety of Soviet aircraft of the 2WW period!😲

But they still built a new cockpit according to the original technical documentation.  Here, as I understand it, the film consultants played a decisive role, it seems to me that at least one of the consultants is a modeler!

But what the scenario line will be, one can only guess .... As I think, 🤔 everything will be fine ..... or everything will be bad.

🤗

B.R.

Serge

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On ‎10‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 2:44 AM, Rob G said:

I have to wonder how they'll treat her- legend is never reality, and from what I've read, she was not universally popular among her fellow pilots, regardless of their sex.

I don't suppose popularity was the most important thing, being good at her job was.  After all, Guy Gibson was not the most popular member of the Royal Air Force, notwithstanding Richard Todd's sympathetic performance, but he was an outstandingly brave man.

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Movie "Litvyak".

Work in progress.

Scale models for movie.

So Me-109 from Trumpeter, Yak-1 scratchbuilding.

 

B.R.

Serge

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Truro Model Builder said:

Naturally, I didn’t read the book, but I’m afraid that most of what is written there about Litvyak can be sent to the bin.  Why?  Here is the fresh  article (on Russian)

Mikhail Timin "Victories and defeats of Lilia Litvyak "

https://warspot.ru/8472-pobedy-i-porazheniya-lidii-litvyak

Timin studied in the archives reports on the fighting of the regiment and the reports of the pilots in which Litvyak was directly mentioned.

Despite some slight bias in the article, Timin knows how to work with archives.

 

Descriptions of the battles written by the participants of the events taken from the archives (as an example.

Air battle, which was held by a pair of fighters of the 73rd Guards.  IAP with the German Messerschmitts in October 1943.

390754_original.jpg

Yes, this is an archival diagram of the battle and not a children's drawing! It's just that not everyone can be great artists!) greatly change everything that was written earlier.  So in particular, her reliably confirmed victories, only one plane and a ballon that she personally shot down. Other declared victories do not coincide with official German losses.  Of course, it is likely that not all data on German losses are available or the loss was officially recorded only the next day.... however...

But this does not mean that Litvyak was a bad pilot or she came up with victories; it follows from Timin’s article that some German planes were indeed damaged on Litvyak’s victory day, but these injuries were not critical.  In general, it is clear from the reports that Litvyak was a very experienced and stubborn fighter whose individual flight training was not inferior to or even superior to the training of male pilots. But in general, the Litvyak regiment was unsatisfactory tactical training, couples were poorly flown, as a result during mass battles, the system broke up and everyone fought for himself.  This naturally led to losses.

By the way, the circumstances of the death of Litvyak are still unknown and will probably remain a mystery forever.

Perhaps this was a failure of mechanisms

fighter.

In general, read the article and draw your conclusions.  Perhaps my conclusions will seem wrong to you's.

 

Some reviews on article:

https://iam-krasnoyarsk.livejournal.com/136305.html

 

https://afirsov.livejournal.com/524160.html

 

 

 

B.R.

Serge

Edited by Aardvark

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On 24/10/2019 at 19:32, 593jones said:

I don't suppose popularity was the most important thing, being good at her job was.  After all, Guy Gibson was not the most popular member of the Royal Air Force, notwithstanding Richard Todd's sympathetic performance, but he was an outstandingly brave man.

From some books I have read Douglas Bader and Johnie Johnson both had their admirers and those who were not fans. That’s the way of the world really. 

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28 minutes ago, Aardvark said:

Naturally, I didn’t read the book, but I’m afraid that most of what is written there about Litvyak can be sent to the bin. 

Well, that's a very sweeping statement, Serge. If you haven't read the book, how do you know it's wrong?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Truro Model Builder said:

Well, that's a very sweeping statement, Serge. If you haven't read the book, how do you know it's wrong?

Can you show the annotation in the book where links to archival files are indicated?

 

As sources, the book states this:

(no, this is not an encryption for sleeping agents demanding to blow up the British Parliament!😁😁)

 

ЦАМО РФ, фонд 73-го гв.иап, опись 143484, дело 2

ЦАМО РФ, фонд 73-го гв.иап, опись 273351, дело 3

ЦАМО РФ, фонд 6-й гв.иад, опись 1, дела 21, 28, 95

ЦАМО РФ, фонд 102-й иад ПВО, опись 20315, дело 7

ЦАМО РФ, фонд 48, опись 451, дело 11

 

If yes, and you show a photo of the annotation from the book, I agree that I was wrong.  If there are no links to these sources, I'm sorry, but on the basis of what documents was the book You indicated written?

🤗

 

B.w. ЦАМО it's Central Archive Ministry of Defence.....do You seriously think that going into ЦАМО a foreigner is the same as going to a supermarket?

😁

 

B.R.

Serge

 

Edited by Aardvark

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Posted (edited)

 

Did not write the most important thing! 😕 That's what happens when you do two things at the same time -  write on the forum and make models *!😁

 

Reviews on the Russian version:

 

https://www.ozon.ru/reviews/31499910/

 

 negative - bla-bla-bla:

 

- This book has a very indirect relation to pilots. The lady who wrote it, I think, is not "in the subject." The book is the purest "ordering" written with foreign money. Sources are none, references are none, although the book is positioned as a historical study. An author must be sued for defamation and insults inflicted on the memory of our wonderful pilots. This is a delusional book.

 

positive/neutral - bla-bla-bla, but interesting moment I highlighted:

 

- Since I already read it, such a sharp review by Yulia Pletneva is surprising.  Not being "in share" of profit with either the author or the publishing house, and as a person who has read a huge number of books about the war, I have to note that with your review you can turn many readers away from a very good book.  Yes, the author is not a historian, but, as can be seen even from the preface, she does not claim this title (how many historians cannot be read, not to understand ...).  As for the truthfulness, fidelity of the sources, etc.: the book sometimes resembles a quote from memoirs of pilots and other authors gathered together.  But I did not see anything deceitful, insulting or slanderous.  And the book was published very high quality.  A selection of photos is just wonderful.  I don’t know whose money the book was published for and why the author didn’t please Ms. Pletneva, but you won’t refuse the storyteller’s talent and ability to present material and reveal the topic.  I recommend to everyone interested in the Second World War and our aviation.

 

negative, emotional but with factual:

 

-I  must say right away that I also want to "turn readers away from ..." Write "very good" hand does not rise.
 Yes, the book was published beautifully, the printing industry is good that you do not often see it now, but the text ... I fully understand Roman Shtanko that he was carried away by him, because I simply could not trace all the lies that the author’s text is saturated with.  Reading vibrant memories, it’s hard not to believe another text, especially since the author’s language is easily perceived.  But what a shame to read this to those who, as they say, "in the subject!".

My mother, Ekaterina Vasilievna Ryabova, Hero of the USSR, was the navigator of the squadron of the 46th female air regiment.  Therefore, I know firsthand about women's shelves.  In addition, I am a member of the regiment's children’s community.  Our community collects documents, photo and video materials and everything related to the regiment.  Since we have first-hand material, we created an information center (for now this is a VKontakte page) to disseminate accurate and truthful information about the shelves, because how many free and involuntary fabrications have to be met!  It is enough to recall the series "Night Swallows" with its glamorous plastic heroines ... About the inaccuracies in books, even in seemingly reputable publications, I just keep silent.

And here comes the book of Mrs. Vinogradova.  We read the first lines: "Germans were waiting in Moscow ... Muscovites, terrified by horror ... tried to escape from the city at all costs" ...
 And before me lies a poem by Glafira Kashirina, who died on the Blue Line, dedicated to my mother.  We read:
 "Do you remember, dear, October nights, disturbing days near Moscow,
 When, without closing her tired eyes, she guarded her proud peace.
 In those days, we loved the capital more strongly, it seemed to us more beautiful than a hundred times -
 Around dear harsh faces.  And every Muscovite is like a friend or brother** "
 There is a difference?!  And do not tell me about enthusiastic girls.  Yes, there were looters, there was panic and robbery, but to say that about ALL is to spit in the face of the defenders of Moscow.
 But what hurts the most is the poison that poured on the heroines of the book.

We read about Raskova and learn that thanks to her work, hundreds of aircraft designers, directors of aircraft plants and the Air Force command were arrested (link to an article in the 2004 Serovskiy Rabochy newspaper), that she was used to risking other people's lives, and that to push her idea about women’s  She took advantage of the regiment she intended to command in that she had "so good relations" with Stalin ... in which ?!  (In fact, she transmitted this request through the People's Commissar Shakhurin, without personally meeting with Stalin.) What image is being created ?!
 I don’t want to talk about those I don’t know, but when I read about the commissar of the regiment, Evdokia Rachkevich, that “nobody loved her and everyone tried to be away from her” - I want to throw this book away.  Until the end of my days, my mother treated Rachkevich “mother”, as she was called in the regiment, with deep love and respect, and Hero of Russia Alexander Akimov tremblingly kept her archive and her memories.

Even the regiment commander Evdokia Bershanskaya, about which NOBODY NEVER could say a single bad word, she managed to portray in an unsightly form.
 With regard to historicity, the links to the "interview of the author", "unreleased memoirs" and "electronic version" without specifying a link on the Internet speak for themselves.
 Conclusion: read only quoted memories, and even then with an eye ...
 The trouble is that there are written books about women's regiments and real historical research, but there is no money for their publication.  And Mrs. Vinogradova, by order of the British, apparently, found a decent amount ...

 

 

 

 

So, something (intuition?) tells me that I will not have to apologize for my opinion, and there will be no links to the archives because the authors were not in them.  According to reviews, the book is a compilation of various memoirs and journal publications in a free interpretation of the main author.

 

The main argument in favor of the fact that there will be no links to archives in the book is a simple logical fact, if they were, then the topic would be closed and Mikhail Timin simply would not sit in the archive and write an article!

And by the way, the "archival revolution" that is, wider access to archives occurred after 2018 ....

 

From myself I want to add.  Not all Russian-language authors published in the West have authority on the Russian-language Internet.

As an example, the administrator of the site Scalemodels.ru - Nazar, openly calls one such very popular and well-known author in the West - a thief!

Because he took the photos taken by his father, a former Tu-16 pilot, during the service in Northern Fleet, Severomorsk base , and published them in his book, not only without paying the money (at least symbolic!), but did not even indicate the real authorship.

 

Therefore, the main criterion for me is the

clear reputation of the author as a historian and researcher and links to his work with archives / technical documentation.

 

Other - past the cash register!

 

B.R.

Serge 

 

____________

* - and I'm glue left gun from Mikoyan Ye-5 on Mikoyan Ye-2A...😁....but noticed in time and already redid ....😁

** - maybe you 's

think these lines

"like a friend or brother"

are very pathos and propaganda, but I personally know this feeling, I had it in 2014-2015, everything is as it was written by that poetess, many years ago.🤗

 

 

Edited by Aardvark

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All I said was I thought it was a good book, and for that I get what seems to be a lengthy diatribe telling me how wrong I am and demanding I provide evidence of my opinion. Obviously it is a subject you care much for, but I'm afraid I do not, and I do not intend to go hunting through the book to prove anything. Frankly, I don't care.

 

Goodbye, Serge.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Truro Model Builder said:

All I said was I thought it was a good book, and for that I get what seems to be a lengthy diatribe telling me how wrong I am and demanding I provide evidence of my opinion.

😲

Why did you decide that?  To consider a book good or bad, like a movie good or bad, is everyone’s private affair, and I have nothing more to do to prove You are right or wrong.

 

You asked me why I wrote this?  I answered You. I just substantiated my opinion, with reference to those who read the Russian version of the book, and my personal life experience work with documents and people in real life.

 

Just this.

 

B.R.

Serge

Edited by Aardvark

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