Doom3r Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 Hi guys, So I've just finished reading Bengtsson's "Red Orm" and decided to build a small longship model. Picked up Smer "Oseberg Ship" in 1/180 and have a few newbie questions (this is going to be my 1st sail ship model as well): 1) Stereotypically long ships have a dragon head on the nose of the ship, however Oseberg ship is missing it. Do we know if it is b/c it was used for burial or not all of the ships had a heads on it's nose? If I am trying to build a ship that is going to sail in the sea should it have a head or not? 2) If the ship is sailing in a sea in a bit stormy weather would it be still using rower's power or oars would be stowed? If oars are going to be stowed would it be brought on the deck or would it be in a fixed position on the outside of the hull? 3) The sail is awful in the kit. While I found few tutorial on the youtube on how to make sails it is unclear what people do use as a sail material? 4) Internet is full of pictures of the sails having multiple colors on it as well as some drawings/runes/etc on the sail. Do we know if this was the case or the sails were just dirty white color and everything else is just an artistic impression? Thanks! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdesaxe Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 1) The dragon (or other) heads, from archaeological evidence, seem to have been demountable and fitted into sockets in the top of the stempost. There's a fair amount of speculation that they were removed when the ships were returning home (to indicate the crew was travelling in peace) and fitted when they were outbound and raiding or attacking. 2) The oars would not usually be used with the sails except in low wind conditions. The oars stowed inboard on the deck or on crutches somewhat above the deck to keep them out of the way. 3) The best way of making model sails I've seen has been to sandwich a thin paper pattern between two layers of silkspan (material used to cover radio-control flying model aircraft). There was a good detailed article about the process in the Nautical Research Journal for December 2018. You might be able to access it through a library or through the Nautical Research Guild's website. 4) The sails almost certainly were made from wool and not cotton or linen. Your best reference would be to go to the website of the Viking Ship Museum in Roskilde (in Denmark). the website is in English, too, so it should be easy to navigate. The museum has built several replicas on the basis of archaeological work done there (I actually worked on the first one as a volunteer far too many years ago). Hope this helps, Maurice 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courageous Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 Looks like you've answered your own questions. Like most things in modelling, as you build subjects further back in time,evidence starts to get very thin a you have to start to look generically in the time frame and make your own decisions. Do what you think is right, don't paralyze yourself with over analysis. So, crack on and get building and start a WiP. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vingtor Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 From several books, I too have the impression that animal heads on the stem post were only used on offensive raids. Usually removed also in foreign waters, and fitted for raids and attacks. Nils 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom3r Posted September 26, 2019 Author Share Posted September 26, 2019 17 hours ago, Courageous said: Looks like you've answered your own questions. Like most things in modelling, as you build subjects further back in time,evidence starts to get very thin a you have to start to look generically in the time frame and make your own decisions. Do what you think is right, don't paralyze yourself with over analysis. So, crack on and get building and start a WiP. Stuart Well, in my case my "oldest" subject is I-153 from 1930th. And in such subjects you usually argue about "wrong" shade of green or something 2mm off where it should. This would be my 2nd maritime model as well, however the kit is pretty simple (less than 20 pieces) and I already glued hull and trying to figure out what to do with oars, awful sail and waiting on 1/200 people and to see if I would be able to dress them up as a crew. If I would be able to get something I like out of this I might try Revell and/or Emhar. PS: My usual subjects are jets however occasionally I deviate to that to some other areas (armor, cars, figurines) to learn new tricks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Macnaughton Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 Quote As I understood it the Oseberg ship was some kind of ceremonial or leisure craft with an appreciably shallower hull rather than a sea going vessel, let alone a true long ship type raider. The "Sea Stallion from Glendalough" replica at Roskilde is an example of the true long ship and there are a goo set of photos here: http://www.modellmarine.de/index.php?option=com_imagebrowser&view=gallery&folder=havhingsten-roskilde&Itemid=55 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 Francis just said what I was going to. Follow his link for photos and more information of the Oseberg ship which is in the Viking Ship Museum at Oslo. Apparently she is suffering from the original preservation treatment which has created crystals which are now destroying the wood - perhaps it would be best to go see it reasonably soon! There is considerable work being done to hopefully reverse the damage and maintain her in much the state she is now - but go see her (and her companions) anyway. Stop off at Roskilde on the way. Plenty of other good stuff on the way, but the beer is pricey. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 (edited) On 9/26/2019 at 1:49 AM, Doom3r said: 4) Internet is full of pictures of the sails having multiple colors on it as well as some drawings/runes/etc on the sail. Do we know if this was the case or the sails were just dirty white color and everything else is just an artistic impression? I was told by a fellow here who is a bit of an expert that the painted sails were probably rare or possibly a flight of modern fancy. But who can say. Not exactly a langskip but we restored a 120 year old Nordlandsbåt a couple of years back and which we use for sailing over the summer months here. They are a direct descendant of the seafaring langskip and are very enjoyable to sail and remarkably sturdy craft in heavy swells. Was out in her for 4 trips this summer. She's gaff rigged not square rigged for modern convenience. Not many people outside of Norway know these still exist. Under restoration, removing a hundred years of tar (Nordlandsbåt have the hull tarred inside and out for waterproofing just like a langskip) and replacing some of the wood, spars, etc Painting... And doing what she's made to do... Sorry for the slight diversion but I thought it might be nice for those outside Norway to see that the direct descendants of these boats are still in use. Edited September 27, 2019 by Smithy Typo 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 There were three classes of long ship 1. the Dragon war ship 2. the trading vessel 3. a type which not as wide as the trading ship and not as narrow as the dragon, It was used by settlers and fishermen but could be used for coastal trade or raiding. Oars and sail were rarely used together. When the mast was stepped the oars were shipped, that is, pulled in and stowed on a rack which was in the centre of the ship. This rack also was the framework for a tent type cover. When the oars were needed the mast was un-stepped and stowed on the centre rack. The dragon ships animal head was permanent. It was the symbol of the ship's owner/leader In type 3 above the animal head could be removed and replaced with a large weather vane. Type 2 usually did not have anything. It could have an animal head or a weather vane but usually on these the weather vane was carried at the top of the mast Sails were usually made of linen but material made of nettle fibre is also known, The sail was made up of strips of material no wider that 24 inches. That was the largest size of a Norse loom. The Norse had linen, they made good clothes out of it. Cotton - which canvas is made of - came from the Middle-East during the late 12th century or so, towards the end of the Greater Viking period The Greater Viking period was from about 575 to about 1350. The second great Viking period is now 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 4 minutes ago, Smithy said: Sorry for the slight diversion but I thought it might be nice for those outside Norway to see that the direct descendants of these boats are still in use. The Norse style boat is still built and used in certain areas around Ireland and North Lancashire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Black Knight said: The Norse style boat is still built and used in certain areas around Ireland and North Lancashire Are they tarred and ballasted the same way and iron riveted? I didn't know that so it's nice to know if the traditions live on elsewhere as well. Edited September 27, 2019 by Smithy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 I don't know the answer to that but the boat builders I talked to told me they built them exactly as they been for centuries. The boat builders themselves can claim descendancy from the Norse. In parts of Ireland the boats are used for in-shore fishing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, Black Knight said: I don't know the answer to that but the boat builders I talked to told me they built them exactly as they been for centuries. The boat builders themselves can claim descendancy from the Norse. In parts of Ireland the boats are used for in-shore fishing. That's actually really great to hear. I had no idea that boats were still being made in the same building traditions as the Nordlandsbåt. Not the easiest to build (or restore for that matter - it was fairly hard work over the best part of a year) but they are very special when you have them out on the water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Further info: During the Greater Viking period the anchor was a large stone. The fluked anchor is a very much later invention. Between the 'tent' area and the steering platform was placed a large stone with one or two depressions in it. This was the cooking stone. It was carved from a most unusual stone which is found mostly in the Orkneys and Shetlands.[for the purposes of our discussion] Its called 'soap stone'. It can be carved to shape with a knife but when subjected to localised heat it becomes more solid and fireproof. It was used as a cooking stone as well as for cooking vessels In a dragon boat each warrior sat upon a locked chest when rowing. This was his personal chest. When the ship was grounded for any period the chests were brought ashore to their owners habitations. In this chest he kept his spare clothes, personal god worshipping items, his share of plunder and his ready cash, which was commonly pieces of gold or silver cut up into small chunks - this was and is called 'hack silver' Painted sails: I think there are references to Viking raiders being seen from afar and recognised because of the painted sails. The sails could be each vertical strip being a different colour [dyed cloth] or a symbol painted onto the whole sail. The Viking raider wanted to instil fear on his quarry before he arrived, half the battle is won if your opponent is afraid and running away. I differentiate between 'Norse' and 'Viking' as 'Norse' is the usual term we use for Danish/Norwegian/Swedish/ Islander seafarers, aka the Norsemen becoming the 'Northmen', eventually the 'Nor-man', to 'Norman' The word or term Viking is reckoned to come from old Norse e'viking - a verb, to go raiding, or to go pirating. Thus not all Norse were Viking, nor were all Viking Norse, as there were Viking from Cornwall/Devon/Scilly Isles area 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 On 26/09/2019 at 00:49, Doom3r said: . . . So I've just finished reading Bengtsson's "Red Orm" and decided to build a small longship model. Picked up Smer "Oseberg Ship" in 1/180 and have a few newbie questions (this is going to be my 1st sail ship model as well): . . . as Norse Long Ships varied in length from about 12 feet long up to about 90 feet long and almost everything was in proportion, eg smaller oars on 12 footers, longer oars needing three rowers on the 90 footers do not worry about the scale of people you use, as long as they are reasonable. I used 1/144 figures and some milliput on them on my Long Ship build. (no photos) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom3r Posted September 28, 2019 Author Share Posted September 28, 2019 5 hours ago, Black Knight said: as Norse Long Ships varied in length from about 12 feet long up to about 90 feet long and almost everything was in proportion, eg smaller oars on 12 footers, longer oars needing three rowers on the 90 footers do not worry about the scale of people you use, as long as they are reasonable. I used 1/144 figures and some milliput on them on my Long Ship build. (no photos) Well that was the plan except the smallest people I have are the seated USAF & USN fighter pilots but I think that oxygen masks, g-suits and helmets would look a bit out of time on a X century ship The smallest people hobby shops within a 50 miles radius have are HO scale which might do work if I was trying to build fishing boat This is why I had to order smaller people online. However I do not worry too much about them taking a bit of time to arrive since I am using oils to reproduce wood texture so it would take a week for it to dry up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob G Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 14 hours ago, Black Knight said: I differentiate between 'Norse' and 'Viking' as 'Norse' is the usual term we use for Danish/Norwegian/Swedish/ Islander seafarers, aka the Norsemen becoming the 'Northmen', eventually the 'Nor-man', to 'Norman' The word or term Viking is reckoned to come from old Norse e'viking - a verb, to go raiding, or to go pirating. Thus not all Norse were Viking, nor were all Viking Norse, as there were Viking from Cornwall/Devon/Scilly Isles area I'm so glad that you've added this, as I get tired of doing it myself and then dealing with the fallout. Let's not even get into horned helmets... 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorfinn Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 3 hours ago, Rob G said: Let's not even get into horned helmets... Just saying... ...some of us can really rock the helmet.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnl42 Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 Kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niall Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 Oars were used when sailing. They were mounted vertically on the side of the vessel with the blades in the water like the lee boards on Thames barges to act like a modern centreboard, so the vessel could sail slightly into the wind. One other point, Vikings never had horns on their helmets, this myth comes from the misinterpetation of a painting by one of Wagner's costume designers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom3r Posted September 29, 2019 Author Share Posted September 29, 2019 3 hours ago, Niall said: Oars were used when sailing. They were mounted vertically on the side of the vessel with the blades in the water like the lee boards on Thames barges to act like a modern centreboard, so the vessel could sail slightly into the wind. Having hard time to picture it in my head. Do you have any drawings/pictures on how did it look like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 me too. I've never seen this illustrated in any of the ancient artwork nor mentioned in the annals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niall Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 I remember seeing it in a picture or TV program many years ago when I was at school(in the 60's). As to the appearance - The oars were mounted like this ||||||| along the side of the ship starting further forward than the mast to a point equally far aft of the mast, with the blades in the water, on the lee side of the ship. the blades ends would be lower than the ship's keel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 For a source of small figures try N gauge railway shops. As for using the oars as leeboards, it is an interesting idea but I'd check that with the Roskilde museum ships first. I don't recall seeing it on any of their voyages, but obviously I've only seen a tiny proportion of their work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhouse Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 I find this thread fascinating. A big "thank you" to all posing such interesting questions, and especially to @Niall and @Black Knight for the informative answers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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