Spitfire TR.9

[Devilfish]

I know this subject has been broached in the past, but I can't find the answers I'm after.

 

I was approached at a display we were doing at the RAF Fire Museum last weekend, to see if it would be possible to build a TR.9 in, preferably, 1/48.  The gentleman concerned had recently had a flight in one, and wanted a replica of it.

Of course I said I'd look into it....

So....what I need to know is....

1) I read in another thread that the front cockpit is 13 inches further forward. Is this true?

2) Is the rear cockpit fully equipped? Ie, the same as the front one?

3) Are there any other differences I need to know?

 

I'm aware that the conversion is extremely rare, so I'm not holding out any hope of getting one.  I will probably have to mould my own rear canopy. That will be fun.....

 

Thoughts on the best MkIX kit?  I've only built the Revell (rebox?) MkIX, but have built the Hasegawa MkVIII

 

The specific aircraft I want to do is MJ627, if that's of any relevance.

 

TIA

[Luka]

Brigade Models has a 1/48 fuselage conversion set, but I don't know anything about the current availability of that set.
It can yield some nice results though (link to page in Dutch)
https://modelbrouwers.nl/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=125&t=48866

Cheers

[JosephLalor]

1 hour ago, Devilfish said:

I'm aware that the conversion is extremely rare, so I'm not holding out any hope of getting one.  I will probably have to mould my own rear canopy. That will be fun.....

One remaining in stock at https://www.aviationmegastore.com

[Work In Progress]

Or if you search around a bit you will probably find one of the off-the-shelf 1/72 complete kits for sale somewhere. It's a good kit.

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/az-model-az7480-supermarine-spitfire-tr9--353486

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, Devilfish said:

Thoughts on the best MkIX kit?  I've only built the Revell (rebox?) MkIX, but have built the Hasegawa MkVIII

Revell IX is a rebox Hasegawa.

 

Given the small rear fuselage on the hase, adding a 2nd pit maybe a hassle.

 

The best 1/48 IX kit is the Eduard,  but check your option carefully, as a post war TR9 may have the teardrop upperwing wing bulges for the later wheels.

2nd option, and cheap, is the ICM, 

 

3 hours ago, Devilfish said:

1) I read in another thread that the front cockpit is 13 inches further forward. Is this true?

yes, the front cockpit was moved forward,  13 inches sounds about right, but other would know more, or look at photos, the length of the fuel tank cover is known.

3 hours ago, Devilfish said:

2) Is the rear cockpit fully equipped? Ie, the same as the front one?

There will be photos of two seaters about, I don't think it has all the controls, just the main flight ones,  but that is 'best guess' given the narrower fuselage....

I just google imaged 'TR9 spitfire cockpit'

 

from

https://testpilotjim.com/spitfire-rear-seat-conversion/

 

and

https://www.intotheblue.co.uk/blog/2016/08/26/the-origins-of-the-two-seat-spitfire/

 

note the teardrop wing fairings I mentioned.

 

for a scratch build the canopy is the tricky bit,  if you can make a master for that successfully the rest is "some modelling skill"  

 

HTH

 

 

[Seahawk]

There is a J H Clark cutaway drawing of the rear cockpit of a Spitfire Tr.VIII in the Nov 22 1946 The Aeroplane of which I would send you a scan if my scanner wasn't kaput.  It says "All essential controls and instruments duplicated in both cockpits".  The rear instrument panel (partly obscured) looks pretty much like the front one but the starboard sidewall looks pretty bare with just the undercarriage control on it.  On the port sidewall the elevator and rudder trim wheels are visible as well as the throttle control and pitch change controls.  Rather conspicuous is a large battery box on the cockpit floor forward of the stick with the rear edge about in line with the instrument panel.

 

The drawing is of a Tr.VIII and shows fuel tanks installed in the cannon bays.  In a separate article in the 12 July 1947 issue of Aeroplane Spotter there is discussion of the extra tankage installed in the Mk.IX airframe to make up for that lost to the 2nd cockpit.  BTW, it says the forward cockpit was moved forward by 13.5".

 

HTH.

[KevinK]

It's probably worth noting that the RAF never used the two-seat Spitfire trainer.

 

There are essentially two official Supermarine conversions: the single T.Mk.VIII demonstrator, which still exists as G-AIDN, and T.Mk.IX builds for some export customers, most notably perhaps the few for the Irish Air Corps which survived to fly into the warbird market, some of which were converted back to single-seaters. Since the original customers for these trainers were air forces, with the instructor in the rear cockpit, I would expect that essentially all aircraft functions - with the possible exception of armament - would be controllable from the rear cockpit.

 

Then there are modern warbird conversions, which may - in some cases - be more intended to provide a "Spitfire ride experience". In these, the qualified pilot is usually in the front cockpit, the passenger in the rear, thus in some of these aircraft there may not be the need for any more than basic controls.

 

Additionally, the modern warbird conversions usually have very different external cockpit profiles. In the "official" Supermarine conversion, the rear cockpit sits significantly higher than the front: many warbird conversions do not feature this. Canopies therefore differ also.

 

As always with model making, know which aircraft you are modelling.

[modelldoc]

Yes, I only know that the Royal Netherland AF used a trainer postwar.

 

I had build one years before:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/16564866596/in/photolist-qkj9AD-reMoPf-qkj23T-reMgJd-pc5Sua-oQtbML-ny3Ayb-q9y77U-97HHsS-qqWnoi

 

On the other hand, the red air force had some converted from Mk IX.

 

modelldoc

 

 

[Troy Smith]

6 hours ago, Devilfish said:

The gentleman concerned had recently had a flight in one, and wanted a replica of it.

 

27 minutes ago, KevinK said:

There are essentially two official Supermarine conversions: the single T.Mk.VIII demonstrator, which still exists as G-AIDN, and T.Mk.IX builds for some export customers, most notably perhaps the few for the Irish Air Corps which survived to fly into the warbird market, some of which were converted back to single-seaters. Since the original customers for these trainers were air forces, with the instructor in the rear cockpit, I would expect that essentially all aircraft functions - with the possible exception of armament - would be controllable from the rear cockpit.

 

Then there are modern warbird conversions, which may - in some cases - be more intended to provide a "Spitfire ride experience". In these, the qualified pilot is usually in the front cockpit, the passenger in the rear, thus in some of these aircraft there may not be the need for any more than basic controls.

 

Additionally, the modern warbird conversions usually have very different external cockpit profiles. In the "official" Supermarine conversion, the rear cockpit sits significantly higher than the front: many warbird conversions do not feature this. Canopies therefore differ also.

 

if the chap want a replica, you need to know what plane he flew in,  an actual TR.9 has the raised rear cockpit and specialist hood, but something like Grace Spitfire, would be much easier as it seems to have two standard canopies.

My post above was on the assumption you wanted info on an actual TR.9, and it's possible you may not.

 

HTH

 

 

[KevinK]

13 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

if the chap want a replica, you need to know what plane he flew in,  an actual TR.9 has the raised rear cockpit and specialist hood, but something like Grace Spitfire, would be much easier as it seems to have two standard canopies.

My post above was on the assumption you wanted info on an actual TR.9, and it's possible you may not.

 

6 hours ago, Devilfish said:

The specific aircraft I want to do is MJ627, if that's of any relevance.

 

Well, looking at online photos of MJ627 - it seems to have the same profile and canopy that it had when it was an IAC trainer, i.e. a standard Supermarine conversion. I think that the AZ 1/72 kit even offers MJ627 as an option, does it not?: unfortunately, the OP wants 1/48, so this doesn't really help.

 

For what it's worth, unless you can find cockpit photos which differ, I would go with Seahawk's post, #6 and go with the Supermarine layout.

[Devilfish]

Thanks for all your help. 

 

Yes, as I stated originally, the aircraft in question is MJ627.  

 

I am aware of the AZ 1/72 kit, but he saw my 1/48 ones and I think he'd prefer that scale. 1/72 is a last resort.

 

I feel I am capable of carrying out all the mods needed to produce a TR.9 as it is in this form, as long as I can make a buck to mould the rear canopy from,

 

At the moment I am only in the "fact gathering" phase, until I know what is involved. and which kit (kits) I will be using, so I can give him a quote.  

 

No pressure!

[Luka]

18 hours ago, KevinK said:

 

 

(..) I think that the AZ 1/72 kit even offers MJ627 as an option, does it not? (..)

A little sidestep from the main topic, but no; the decals include only an Irish AF version, a Dutch AF version and a an all orange scheme from a Dutch private contractor (Schreiner).

[Giorgio N]

5 minutes ago, Luka said:

A little sidestep from the main topic, but no; the decals include only an Irish AF version, a Dutch AF version and a an all orange scheme from a Dutch private contractor (Schreiner).

 

AZ issued the TR.9 in two boxes: one included these options, the other offered decals for a number of RAF style schemes, including two for MJ627. This was catalogue number 7603

[FG2Si]

If it helps any, Iain Olgivie recently built a two seat Spitfire using the Tamiya 1/32 kit. 

 

https://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?/topic/70900-grace-type-two-seat-spitfire-in-132/#comments

 

 

[Luka]

2 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

AZ issued the TR.9 in two boxes: one included these options, the other offered decals for a number of RAF style schemes, including two for MJ627. This was catalogue number 7603

Oops, I should have double checked..

[JosephLalor]

Sorry, Paul, I checked again on the Aviation Megastore site and it would appear that the available conversion kit is the 1/72 one from Brigade Models.  I think you might get a more accurate model from scratching a conversion as the 1/48 conversion kit seems to perpetuate the too short fuselage of the Hasegawa kit.

[Devilfish]

13 hours ago, JosephLalor said:

Sorry, Paul, I checked again on the Aviation Megastore site and it would appear that the available conversion kit is the 1/72 one from Brigade Models.  I think you might get a more accurate model from scratching a conversion as the 1/48 conversion kit seems to perpetuate the too short fuselage of the Hasegawa kit.

I could only find the AZ models kit on Aviation megastore's site, but including postage, it would have been almost £30, and I am NOT paying that for a 1/72 Spitfire!

[Devilfish]

15 hours ago, FG2Si said:

If it helps any, Iain Olgivie recently built a two seat Spitfire using the Tamiya 1/32 kit. 

 

https://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?/topic/70900-grace-type-two-seat-spitfire-in-132/#comments

 

 

That's the "easy" one, as it's a "Grace" type, with just a second spitfire canopy.  The one I'm building has the raised bubble canopy.

[Work In Progress]

It's no easier: the second canopy is custom in both cases.

[Bell209]

I built the Brigade Models 1/48 conversion with the Revell (Hasegawa) Mk.IX/XVI donor kit here. It's quite a basic conversion and needs a fair bit of work. There are no internals, so you need to scratchbuild the entire rear cockpit. SM520 was rebuilt as a Tr.9 when it was rebuilt and, like all the others, is fully functional in the back seat. The instructor flies from the back (after the first couple of familiarisation flights), so it has all the same equipment as the front. I used the Eduard panel and cut it to shape to fit the supplied rear panel. I was lucky enough to get a set of Aeroclub controls for the rear cockpit but they're not available now, so scratchbuilding is the likely option.

 

The 1/72 kit is at least a complete kit, so is probably easier.

[nuuumannn]

On ‎9‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 9:30 AM, KevinK said:

The specific aircraft I want to do is MJ627, if that's of any relevance.

Here are a couple of pictures of the titular MJ627 outside the Biggin Hill Heritage Hangar taken last year, from where it conducts joyflights.

 

MJ627 i

 

A good view of the canopy layout.

 

MJ627 ii

 

 

On ‎9‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 9:07 AM, Troy Smith said:

There are essentially two official Supermarine conversions: the single T.Mk.VIII demonstrator, which still exists as G-AIDN

 

This is the T.VIII G-AIDN as MT818, at the same location. The canopy layout in evidence.

 

MT818

 

And just for kicks, SM520 taken at Goodwood last year, too, and although these have been altered for effect for a project, they also show a contemporary two-seat canopy layout.

 

SM520 i

 

SM520 ii