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Hurricane Prototype in 1.48th where do i start ?


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53 minutes ago, wombat said:

These threads come up about once a month ( I started one...) 

 

i cant believe the aftermarket guys aren’t all over this....

because really it's an entire kit that is required...  and what is the demand for a Hurricane prototype kit?   Resin possibly.  

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On 03/10/2019 at 23:01, 72modeler said:

Thanks for both of your posts. If I can't build a decent replica of K5083 using the information you have so generously provided, I've got no business calling myself a modeler! Looks like I have everything I need- now I just need to get off my bum and build something, fer cryin' out loud!

Mike

Mike,if you can live without 100% accuracy just grab an Airfix rag wing and a set of decals(Rick printed me the exhaust ones)

the wheel well covers with the turned up ends are an easy scratch build.Sorry for the thread hijack Keith good luck with the project!

20190621_100311

 

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Yes, but that isn't a model of the prototype, is it? Just a painted differently model of another Hurricane.  I feel that the original poster could readily have done that himself, rather than ask for information on the real thing.

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I will be starting my build pretty soon thanks to all the information gathered so far.

Starting with the Hasagawa Hurricane MK 1 kit first job will be to fill and re scribe the panel lines on the fuselage + reshape the engine cowlings.

I have ordered Fabric wings from MDC this is designed for the Hasagawa kit plus you also get a Watts two bladed prop ( result )

Canopy will have to be moulded from scratch unless an Aero club one turns up.

I have found in my stash a pair of true details wheels plus quick boost control surfaces so things are looking up .

My Spitfire prototype is nearly finished and will be in the RFI section soon.

Cheers. K.

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I gather that the amount of modification from an early mk1 varies depending on the exact spec of the prototype you’re aiming at, as it was repeatedly modified (being a prototype and all...). Certain items remain immutably different to the mk1 eg canopy, exhaust; others are relatively scratchable eg undercarriage doors. 

 

The canopy is a sticking point and quite tricky to DIY but I’ve never seen an aftermarket one.

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4 hours ago, keith in the uk said:

I have ordered Fabric wings from MDC this is designed for the Hasagawa kit

 

Bad move. IMO, an awful set.  The detail is good, but a horribly thick trailing edge,  and made to fit onto the wing in way that means some very careful surgery, on the wing centre section to outer wing. Basically unless you make wing joint fairings or fill really carefully...  you get a crappy detail destroying join.

 

Also, only of use for the prototype with the gun bays, and, note, the prototype  seem to have fabric behind them (like the 72nd Airfix kit...)  but the MDC has the metal behind. 

 

I have the set, and they  fail to tell you about the need for 5 spoke wheels, and the fabric panel at the wing root,  and the need to remove the rectangular access hatch.... and did I mention the 1 mm thick trailing edges....  

 

Adding rib tapes to a wing is not that hard, just repetitive.  

 

As I stated above, the OLD tool Airfix Mk.I is maybe a better starting point, as the raised panel lines just need sanding off.  

 

Many years ago i did start on this,  the pics are up on photobucket, so they are now 'blurred'     ah, I have rehosted some of them now.

 

4 hours ago, keith in the uk said:

I have found in my stash a pair of true details wheels

Are they 5 spoke?  If not, useless for this.  (IIRC they are not great a 4 spoke either...) 

 

All Hurricanes in the L**** and N**** batches have 5 spoke wheels, as does the prototype.   

The Hase hubs are too small, but take 1/4 inch or 6mm drill bit, drill them out and use some of the 5 spoke hub (same hub AFAIK)  from a Eduard spitfire IX (it has 3 types in every boxing) and that's sorted.

 

The Hase fuselage fabric is bloody awful, and is a right pain to sort out.   I have one I am nearly happy with,  though the underfuslage join is just awful,  and the underfuselage is too flat..... I did strip out and test fit an Airfix under fusleage, and that solved the problems pretty much.

Stuffed up fuselages on 1/48th Hurricanes is why I haven't actually built any...... 

 

1 hour ago, wombat said:

The canopy is a sticking point and quite tricky to DIY but I’ve never seen an aftermarket one.

No, the fuselage panel lines are the tricky bit, as they impinge on the  fabric, and anything that messes with the fabric on a hurricane is tricky, as making good can be a lot of work so it does not look like crud.  And given the highly polished cowling, any stuff up will just look shoddy.

 

in my attempt, I ended up trying to reskin the Airfix fuselage...  my starting point was a rebuild of my first Airfix old tool kit, which is why I did the reskin, but I with the need to reshape the spine,  it was as easy to re-do all the detail.  

 

I just made a wooden mould for the canopy, it's not a particularly complex shape.  I was not aware of the added depth at the time though.

 

OK,  I just got these of PB ... they are from 9 years ago and not the best photos, and not how I would approach all the solutions now, but to show that I have actually tried some of these ideas out.

 

canopy and mould, frames are a test with aluminium tape.

48910674257_9563cdc86d_o.jpg40600208-1 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

Nose with aluminium tape, and wing with aluminium tape ribs, covered with very thin cigarette paper, and grey paint

48910675212_c94a7c0c9e_o.jpg40600182 by losethekibble, on Flickr

The aluminium tape worked pretty well I thought.  I'd use a beading set for fasteners these days as well.

the prop was modified from  a Fury prop.

 

panel lines redone, the curved line is really hard to get to get even on both sides,  or it was then

48910467861_8be0a7046d_o.jpg40600190 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

fuselage  with stretched sprue stringers, this was not as hard as it seems, the Airfix stringer lines were in the right place, mark the strt and end points, tack with liquid cement, pull taught, tack other end.  Fiddly but not difficult.

48910467946_0b4f12cb86_o.jpg40600199 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

covered with thin cigarette paper

48910467311_3f2b79488e_o.jpg40600212 by losethekibble, on Flickr

These days I'd try using Halfords plastic primer filler spray.

 

Exhaust, pre drilled panel, pipes from carefully squashed brass tubing.

48910467881_f7a2ff3a26_o.jpg40600215 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

I ran out of enthusiasm, and it ended up in a box.   I've also learnt an awful lot in the intervening time,  both about Hurricanes, and modelling,  and photography, but some of the above maybe of use?

 

I really must get a model area set up again....

 

HTH

 

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Thanks Troy , as it so happens I have the old tool Airfix Hurricane sitting on the shelf of doom.

I will see what the pros and cons are with the MDC wings and take it from there ( At £ 15.00 + postage I would be a mug not too ).

5 spoke wheels shouldn't be a problem , I can pinch some from a MK9 Spitfire kit and adapt accordingly .

Pity you lost interest on your build , looked like it was coming along nicely .

cheers K.

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How do I make a prototype Hurricane?  The answers will discuss the radiator, flaps, keel under the rear fuselage, undercarriage doors, tailplane struts...  However, nobody mentions the angle of sweep back of the wing leading edge.  James Goulding's book, "Interceptor: RAF Single-Seat Multi-Gun Fighters" has on page 70 a 3-view of K5083 with the note, "The straight front spar in the wing can be seen."  In the text, "The wing planform of K5083 differed from the subsequent Hurricane wing in having a straight front spar and consequently less leading edge sweep back and considerably more forward taper on the trailing edge.  It is very likely that the change of planform for production aircraft was because of the change to eight Browning guns, the weight of which would have moved the centre of gravity too far forward."

Comments? 

 

Mike

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1 hour ago, Michou said:

However, nobody mentions the angle of sweep back of the wing leading edge.  James Goulding's book, "Interceptor: RAF Single-Seat Multi-Gun Fighters" has on page 70 a 3-view of K5083 with the note, "The straight front spar in the wing can be seen."  In the text, "The wing planform of K5083 differed from the subsequent Hurricane wing in having a straight front spar and consequently less leading edge sweep back and considerably more forward taper on the trailing edge.  It is very likely that the change of planform for production aircraft was because of the change to eight Browning guns, the weight of which would have moved the centre of gravity too far forward."

Comments? 

Neat spot Mike

I actually had that book next too me.... that what the book says, but....

hurr1-1.jpg&key=a7643081c9d56948464d2ed8

That does not look like a straight leading edge, and this is an early version, note no gun bays.

The Hurricane was planned to have 8 Brownings from the start.

 

this is I believe the earliest version, and this does not appear to have the sweepback...

Hawker-Hurricane-I-Prototype-K5083-03.jp

 

trestled up for a datum line shot, and maybe of use on the canopy depth debate as well

Hurricane_Prototype_K5083_1st_Modificati

added frames to cockpit, hard to judge on wing....

EDIT ... note to self..read the caption! "Hurricane_Prototype_K5083_1st_Modifications_at_Brooklands"

 

Ah, this one does appear straighter, note different canopy...

hurricane%20protype.2%20jpg.jpg

 

 

hurr1-12.jpg

 

here with gun bays fitted, and some sweep..

hurr1-5.jpg

 

 

as an aside, and IIRC, the old 1/48th Monogram kit has a straighter leading edge....

 

@Michou  thanks a lot for adding this to the discussion, I'd missed that note in the Goulding book (only got it recently though)

cheers

T

more

Hurricane_prototype_K5083_1935_front.jpg

 

for those with the book, on page 71 there is a shot taken from starboard that look to be the same session as this, the background, diffuse light and angle of prop are the same.]

Given the comment on '1st modification' perhaps the straight wing was only on the very first version of K5083?

 

MORE

I love image search  :)

851db96c388bf0e9d4921c4e60b57732.jpg

 

not seen this image before

hawker.hurricane.k5083.jpg

 

 

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Yes, the leading edge on K5083 is not straight, but less swept back on the outer panels than on a production aeroplane.

However, Goulding's speculation on the cause as quoted above has something wrong with it. If arming the aircraft moved the CG forward and if that shift were deemed to require  a change in wing planform, then the outer panels would have been swept further forward rather than further back on the production aeroplane. 

 

You sweep the wings back to effectively move the CG forward in terms of Mean Aerodynamic Chord. It is very possible, indeed likely that the CG of the production Hurricane was moved aft by the fitment of military equipment - this happens to aeroplanes all the time - and it is also well established that the Hurricane was a bit on the tail heavy side throughout its life.  So it is reasonable to assume that the sweeping back of the outer panel geometry was to help with tail-heaviness rather than nose-heaviness. 

 

In any case, if you look at where the guns and ammo go on a Hurricane I, the ammo and the heavy parts of the guns are clearly aft of the CG.

Edited by Work In Progress
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I would admire your ability to see the cg, but I suspect that you mean the chord.  It is the relationship between the cg and the Mean Aerodynamic Centre (basically the 25% chord line on this generation of aircraft) that establishes the stability characteristics of the aircraft.  I strongly suspect that the main weight of the guns and the ammunition are pretty well on the cg, as the use of ammunition would otherwise move the cg.  It is well known that the Mk.I Hurricane had a problem with restricted cg movement: sweeping the wing slightly aft would move the m.a.c. aft which would improve this, so it seems that the problem was present on the prototype.  Fitting military equipment such as the radio would accentuate this: the problem is one reason for the delay in fitting pilot armour which had been planned for prewar.  I must admit not knowing how the problem was actually solved.  (It is possible that it was the actual delivery of the armour that was late, but I've not seen that quoted so it is just a supposition.)

 

The problem was finally solved by the longer nose of the Mk.II, the forward position of the engine moving the cg forward.  I wasn't aware of tail-heavy problems with this or later marks.

Edited by Graham Boak
Corrected chord to centre.
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On 10/12/2019 at 5:10 AM, Troy Smith said:

...this is from an article Hurricane Veracity,  Scale Aircraft Modelling, vol 21, no 8...

 

I think Peters theory about the canopy being stiffer on production Hurricanes when closed is incorrect. It is probably the other way around and probably such a small effect to be negligible with respect to stiffness.

 

It sure looks like it to me that the canopy rails on the Prototype are straight though. Interesting.

 

(my initial blank response was due to the clumsiness of responding on a tablet...)

Edited by StevSmar
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On 10/25/2019 at 11:52 AM, Graham Boak said:

The problem was finally solved by the longer nose of the Mk.II, the forward position of the engine moving the cg forward.  I wasn't aware of tail-heavy problems with this or later marks.

It is certainly correct that the MkII’s were not tail heavy- proven by the large tail weights fitted to (some or all?) of them. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

One thing about the cockpit glass that I don't think has been mentioned on this thread- at least some generations look to me to be (relatively) flat-topped in shape, rather than curved over the top.  This is quite apparent in some photos.  (see Troy's post above)  That makes it pretty hard to re-work a production windscreen/hood.

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7 hours ago, gingerbob said:

That makes it pretty hard to re-work a production windscreen/hood.

Hadn't really thought about that- guess crush-molding might be the best way, or failing that, a balsa master with small holes drilled through the top so that the vacuum will suck the clear material down hard against the mold to get a flat top. Just a thought- the sliding part of the hood looks a lot like the hood on the Frog Bristol 138 kit! (Hmmm, need to re-visit my Bristol 138 kit, as I had made a master to vacform the kit canopy.)

Mike

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On 11/12/2019 at 1:27 AM, gingerbob said:

One thing about the cockpit glass that I don't think has been mentioned on this thread- at least some generations look to me to be (relatively) flat-topped in shape, rather than curved over the top.  This is quite apparent in some photos.  (see Troy's post above)  That makes it pretty hard to re-work a production windscreen/hood.

And that is the biggest problem I have had with the project. I've figured out how to do (or ignore) most of the conversion requirements, but that canopy seems very different to my admittedly non-engineer eye. If only someone would make a prototype conversion with a new canopy. I mean, I'd even take a vac one - I guess it would have to be - even though I have a historic loathing of superglue. 

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11 hours ago, king of men said:

And that is the biggest problem I have had with the project. I've figured out how to do (or ignore) most of the conversion requirements, but that canopy seems very different to my admittedly non-engineer eye. If only someone would make a prototype conversion with a new canopy.

it's not very difficult, the one I did above was my first attempt.  and, it's not like you are about to wreck an expensive kit,  it'll work, or it won't, I I guarantee you'll learn a lot about modelling in the process.

and, as I stated, what is need is an  entire kit, no conversion will really do it.

 

11 hours ago, king of men said:

 

I mean, I'd even take a vac one - I guess it would have to be - even though I have a historic loathing of superglue. 

 

get high strength woodworking PVA,  unless your models get handled carelessly it will be strong enough. 

And superglue is absolutely the best thing I have found for models since my youth.    I don't get the problem people have with it.

 

On 10/11/2019 at 17:47, wombat said:

There was a 1/48 hurricane prototype on display at Telford this weekend. Not expert enough to gauge how proto it typed though.

Photo?

There was a Telford pic posted, which at the side had some 1/48th looking Hurricanes.... the two I could clearly see has issues regarding colour schemes...  see

https://postimg.cc/5HSH9PDD

the Soviet two seater look brown/green, it should be grey/green (profiles show as brown/green though) and the A-A coded one is again from an ancient profile no-one has ever seen a photo of

see 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235009172-riaf-hurricane-with-elephant-nose-art-did-it-exist/

Apologies for my cynicism,  just the poor Hurricane suffers, well, from not being the Spitfire, and as such there are plenty of omissions, inaccuracies and misinformation floating about..

 

there is a pewter built model that looks decent

https://www.staplesandvine.com/index.php/product/hawker-hurricane-prototype-1-48/

HURRICANE-PROTOTYPE-1-1.jpg

 

as in it look to get the main airframe differences.

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didnt realise the prototype differed so greatly from production versions.  This thread has been most informative! 

 

Looking at all the variations, i wonder if it would even be possible to design/sell a 'conversion kit' of aftermarket parts and wings etc, as it still seems like a lot of scratchbuilding and rescribing would be needed irrespective of whatever base model you started from! 

 

 

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On 11/24/2019 at 1:45 PM, Work In Progress said:

Not really: as Troy said in post #26 above, by the time you've finished cataloguing parts that need significant modification you are effectively talking about a complete new kit. 

Not necessarily so , I have found building mine quite easy to do.

1 fuselage  Remove existing fairings,, fill and re scribe the panel lines to plans , remove bottom strake from under fuselage.

2 Wings , I have found the wings from MDC are a perfect fit , I am using the current Airfix MK1 Hurricane kit.

3 Under carrage doors a simple matter of reshaping the existing doors to plan and adding the outer hinged doors.

4 Wheels. Aires do a nice pair of 5 slot wheels for the early Hurricane, job done

6 Prop. included with the MDC wings or available from after market. , 

7 Canopy. I have found the front screen from the car door Typhoon pretty close , this has the flat top needed for the prototype

 the sliding section can be made by using a piece of clear plastic bent over a mould with a hot air gun then cut to shape.

I will be posting pics up soon.

Cheers Keith.

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Yes, but that's not a bolt-on set of commercial conversion parts to do the job, is it? Which is what Kushan was asking about.  For which you need new fuselage, wings, wheels fin, rudder, undercarriage bits, exhausts, prop. canopy, and how is that not "effectively a complete new kit"? 

 

You're doing much as I would do: modifying the fuselage yourself, presumably changing the nose contours as well as the panel lines; changing the fin and rudder and adding the tailplane struts too  (unless you are modelling it later in its career), and you're making your own canopy.

 

Which is all great if you're that way inclined but one thing we know about after-market conversion parts is people who buy them expect them to be comprehensive and won't put up with modifying those parts themselves. 

 

If you're using the MDC wings I imagine you are going for a late armed configuration? 

 

 

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Point taken , unless  somebody comes out with a complete new kit for the prototype Hurricane we are left with our own devices.

I have built my model to represent the prototype when stationed at Martlesham Heath in 1937 , at this point in the prototypes history the radiator had 

been changed , gun access panels had been added to the wings ( but no guns ) the support struts had been removed from the tail planes , and additional framing to the canopy added to stop vibration ,  a radio and mast was added , and the fuselage roundel was made bigger.

No doubt other changes took place as well.

I have found it easier to build the prototype in this configuration using what,s  available kit wise and from the after market . hence the wings from MDC.

until a brand new kit arrives which may not happen for a while yet we are left to building our own versions which is all part of the fun.

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