Churchill NA 75s of Northern Irish Horse: colours?

[Seahawk]

I am thinking of breaking into my 1/72 Dragon stash and building a 1/72 Churchill NA 75 as a vehicle of the Northern Irish Horse based on the sequence of photos taken in March 1945 in the Alfonsini-Mezzano sector in Italy (see for example page 63 of Dennis Oliver's British Armour in Sicily and Italy).  Oliver does well illustrating the markings various of these vehicles carried but his artwork shows them in an overall nondescript brownish green.  Can anyone suggest what that colour might be?  It's surely too late for SCC.2, it's clearly not Light Mud and Black but I can't see these old stagers having been repainted in SCC.15.  So what else is left?

 

Many thanks in advance.

[John Tapsell]

If we were talking about NW Europe then yes I would argue that it was highly unlikely for an 'A' vehicle to be seen in SCC2. However, we are talking Italian campaign and that arena operated to a different beat.

 

The NA75s were old vehicles by this time and unless the vehicle had been run through a major rebuild programme I would suggest it is unlikely that the tank would have been fully repainted. Add a generous layer of mud and dust plus a couple of years of exposure to the Italian climate and it would be very difficult to determine what the colour of the vehicle really is.

 

Personally - I think a worn and weathered SCC2 is a reasonable supposition.

 

Regards,

John

[Kingsman]

SCC15 was mandated for all A Vehs in Italy in June 44 as the lighter colours were no longer suitable for the terrain in Northern Italy.  This was to be carried out "as soon as circumstances and availability of paint permits".  The NA75 conversions were completed before this order was issued but no Churchills were in action in Italy until May 44, with the NA75s being shipped over from Tunisia.

 

Churchill IVs would have been factory-finished in SCC2.  As such they would not have been required to be fully repainted in Light Mud on arrival in Tunisia: a disruptive pattern of Light Mud over the SCC2 would have been permitted.  But the conversion would have required a repaint and the theatre colour at the time was Light Mud with a Blue Black disruptive pattern. so this seems on the face of it to be the most likely repaint colour.

 

However, Mike Starmer contends that Churchills were only seen in Italy in overall SCC2 or SCC15.  If correct - and he most certainly knows his stuff - then the NA75s must have been repainted in SCC2 in Tunisia.

 

So, on balance, your subject vehicle should probably have been in SCC15 by March 45 - 9 months after the colour change.  But SCC2 is not impossible.  SCC15 was not a brownish green: that sounds more like the much earlier G3 Khaki Green.

[Mike Starmer]

By March 1945 almost certainly SCC.15 Olive Drab.  Be aware that Dennis does not choose the print colours used in the artwork, he simply states what the colour should be with a little guidance as to its appearance.  It is down to the artist to choose which Pantone colour is selected to depict the scheme.  Gerry Chester whom I contacted long ago told me that all the NIH tanks were green, even in Tunisia.  Although he was there, I never take witness statements literally.  In this case in 1943 SCC.2 was the basic colour and it may be a simple case of recalling the predominent and most recent colour.   

[Black Knight]

Mike, do you have one of your portions mix for SCC.15 using Humbrol paints? an approximate mix will do me.

I've lost my notes on which I had recorded some of your paint mixes.

[Fishbed]

On 10/6/2019 at 9:14 PM, Black Knight said:

Mike, do you have one of your portions mix for SCC.15 using Humbrol paints? an approximate mix will do me.

I've lost my notes on which I had recorded some of your paint mixes.

All the colours you need here -

 

http://www.mafva.net/other pages/Starmer camo.htm

 

Tim

[Mike Starmer]

Since I do a lot of mixing for various purposes I occasionally hit on a mix which is suitable for another purpose entirely.  I found that this is a very close match to SCC.15 Olive Drab:  9 x Humbrol 253 RLM 83 + 1 x Humbrol 80 Grass Green.  If you are not so fussy the 8 x Humbrol 159 Khaki Drab + 1 x Humbrol 33 Black.  For the canvas tilts either 159 or 150 or combination of both colours.  These were not painted but dyed and were of less intensive colour than the vehicle. 

 

For tank tracks a good general purpose colour is equal parts of Humbrol 64 and Humbrol 173. 

[Seahawk]

Apologies, real life has kept me preoccupied for a few weeks.  Delighted to get responses from people I especially hoped to hear from.  It looks as if the voting of the jury is fairly evenly split but tilting towards SCC.15.  Which is a pity as I'd already laid down a lovely smooth coat of acrylic SCC.2, using Mike's mixing formula.  Will now repaint in enamel SCC.15 and, as is the law with these things, something will of course go wrong.  Probably won't be using the formula using Humbrol 253 RLM 81 though: in my experience anyone using the Humbrol 25x series Luftwaffe enamels likes living dangerously.

 

That track colour paint sounds interesting, Mike.    

[Kingsman]

That might work to your advantage if we assume that the vehicle might have been in SCC2 before conversion and repainting in SCC15.  A distinct possibility as it would not have left the factory in SCC15 but most probably in SCC2.

 

So any paint wear and chipping would reveal the SCC2 underneath before wearing through to bare metal (which would be a dark chocolatey brown from the hardening heat treatment).