Do17E and other early German bombers

[Adam Poultney]

Has anyone built RS Models Do17E? How good is the kit? I'm currently hacking my way through an Airfix and surely there's an easier way (WIP thread will be up tomorrow if I remember). 

Also, are there any good kits of early German bombers, I had a look at the Roden Heinkel 111 but I got put off fairly quickly.

[72modeler]

If ICM keep working backwards through their Do-17/215 family, they would be crazy not to do a Do-17E/F/P, with all of the variations in colors and markings possible between all of those versions I have the RS and the old Airfix kit, and they are both pretty nice, with the RS kit having much better transparencies and detailing. IIRC Squadron and Falcon did vacform transparencies for the Airfix kit. I had started the Airfix kit years ago and was using props, cockpit parts, and detail parts from a Monogram Do-17Z, as well as the vertical and horizontal stabilizers from the Monogram kit, as they were much better and fit  surprisingly well.  I'm sure others who have built either kit can be of more help.

Mike

[Chuck1945]

While I have most of the RS Do 17 variants, the only one I have built was the Airfix kit 45 (+-) years ago when it was a new release. Not read much about the RS kits from a building perspective but I would expect the usual caveats regarding short run kits.

 

edit - added

just realized you asked about early German bombers in general as well as the Do 17 specifically. Italeri did the Ju 86 in a couple of versions, 1970ish vintage. I think those have been selectively re- released over the years. They (Italeri) also did the Ju 52 in several guises including the bomber version and I think there were also after market parts for the bomber as well. Unicraft did a Do 19 in resin c.2013 and as you observed Roden did all the early He 111 variants but they have an evil reputation with regards to build ability; definitely requiring modeling skills and patience.

 

Edited September 21, 2019 by Chuck1945
Add info

[Jure Miljevic]

Heinkel He 70 would be another early Luftwaffe bomber and ICM 1/72 rendition is superb. One has to see quality of surface details to believe it, and one almost needs a magnifying glass to see minute positive rivets at all. Cheers

Jure

[Adam Poultney]

14 minutes ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Heinkel He 70 would be another early Luftwaffe bomber and ICM 1/72 rendition is superb. One has to see quality of surface details to believe it, and one almost needs a magnifying glass to see minute positive rivets at all. Cheers

Jure

I already messed up one, that's cut up now for a Diorama that I keep on meaning to finish 

I'm tempted to build another

[Adam Poultney]

 

5 hours ago, Chuck1945 said:

While I have most of the RS Do 17 variants, the only one I have built was the Airfix kit 45 (+-) years ago when it was a new release. Not read much about the RS kits from a building perspective but I would expect the usual caveats regarding short run kits.

 

edit - added

just realized you asked about early German bombers in general as well as the Do 17 specifically. Italeri did the Ju 86 in a couple of versions, 1970ish vintage. I think those have been selectively re- released over the years. They (Italeri) also did the Ju 52 in several guises including the bomber version and I think there were also after market parts for the bomber as well. Unicraft did a Do 19 in resin c.2013 and as you observed Roden did all the early He 111 variants but they have an evil reputation with regards to build ability; definitely requiring modeling skills and patience.

 

I have concluded that the Roden Heinkel is beyond my ability right now, it's a shame as it's one of my favourite bombers of the war. 

I might look into the Ju86 as I can manage an old kit just fine. 

[Adam Poultney]

10 hours ago, 72modeler said:

If ICM keep working backwards through their Do-17/215 family, they would be crazy not to do a Do-17E/F/P, with all of the variations in colors and markings possible between all of those versions I have the RS and the old Airfix kit, and they are both pretty nice, with the RS kit having much better transparencies and detailing. IIRC Squadron and Falcon did vacform transparencies for the Airfix kit. I had started the Airfix kit years ago and was using props, cockpit parts, and detail parts from a Monogram Do-17Z, as well as the vertical and horizontal stabilizers from the Monogram kit, as they were much better and fit  surprisingly well.  I'm sure others who have built either kit can be of more help.

Mike

Yeah I found the vacuforms, but I will just use the kit parts as they're good enough for me. The interior isn't that detailed so I'm not bothered if I can't see too much.

Hopefully you're right with the ICM kit, I would love that to be the case. Maybe they'll even go back to its roots as an 'airliner' that is totally not a bomber at all.

 

Edit: upon actually test fitting the nose clear parts, I may need a vacuform set....

Edited September 21, 2019 by Adam Poultney

[Jure Miljevic]

A short comment on Italeri Ju 86 kit: it looks good in a box, but is generally somewhat plain. If you prefer Luftwaffe bombers than perhaps Italeri Ju 86 D-1 would be suitable, as RLM 61/62/63 camouflage scheme would mask lack of surface details. Keep everything else buttoned up, scratch build some structure into wheel wells and add some details (and perhaps AM machine-gun) to the top gunner's position and you have a decent model. Heavy framed transparencies of the original aircraft obscure most of aircraft's interior anyway. Cheers

Jure

[Adam Poultney]

Honestly I'm happy as long as a kit is the right shape and looks the part. Smaller details are just a nice bonus. Although I just admit building an Eduard Focke Wulf was nice, I really must get on with that build.

Surface detail isn't an issue as long as panel lines aren't raised, for the wheel wells I'll hardly be looking in them so I can live with no detail. 

[72modeler]

Italeri did both the radial-engined and diesel-engined versions of the Ju-86, and they are pretty decent kits- I have both kits and they look to be pretty accurate, but have simple interiors and no wheel bay structure or detailing, but that was the norm back then. Raised panel lines, but there are very few on the kits, so they would be a good first-time scribing project. Transparencies are good. IIRC Revell  might have reboxed them at some point. I totally agree with the comments regarding the Roden 'Pedro!' Mine is still in the box, especially  after reading a build article that listed all of the corrections needed as well as the horrible fit of almost every part, except the decals! Hoping, but not hopeful that ICM would do a new-tool of the early Luftwaffe and Condor Legion variants, as they look so different from the later versions.

Mike

[Hepster]

You are certainly correct to avoid the Roden early He 111 kits, I built the He 111B about 8 years back and I still have the nightmares.

 

[Adam Poultney]

2 hours ago, 72modeler said:

Italeri did both the radial-engined and diesel-engined versions of the Ju-86, and they are pretty decent kits- I have both kits and they look to be pretty accurate, but have simple interiors and no wheel bay structure or detailing, but that was the norm back then. Raised panel lines, but there are very few on the kits, so they would be a good first-time scribing project. Transparencies are good. IIRC Revell  might have reboxed them at some point. I totally agree with the comments regarding the Roden 'Pedro!' Mine is still in the box, especially  after reading a build article that listed all of the corrections needed as well as the horrible fit of almost every part, except the decals! Hoping, but not hopeful that ICM would do a new-tool of the early Luftwaffe and Condor Legion variants, as they look so different from the later versions.

Mike

Good practice for doing a Vulcan rescribe then, unless Airfix releases a new one (but that will be as soon as I rescribe an old one)

[Adam Poultney]

17 minutes ago, Hepster said:

You are certainly correct to avoid the Roden early He 111 kits, I built the He 111B about 8 years back and I still have the nightmares.

 

Shame really, I would love to model one. There's one surviving somewhere that I really want to go and see. 

I think a lot of Luftwaffe subjects are criminally underrepresented, especially early ones. All the kits are either old or limited run with horrible problems.

I would love to build an early Bf109 in 1/72, but the only kit is apparently a nightmare. Early Do 17s have RS but I can't find much on how well they go together although it seems many have them in their stashes. Heinkel 111s, we know about that.... He112 and He100 only have old kits... Ju288 and 388 don't really have anything good, 188 has hasewaga so hopefully that's ok. 

Meanwhile the Luft'46 stuff is very well represented for something that didn't really exist or was just plans and dreams.

 

[Seahawk]

22 minutes ago, Adam Poultney said:

... Ju288 and 388 don't really have anything good,...

 

Didn’t realise there was too much wrong with the Special Hobby Ju 388s but happy to be put right on that.

[Adam Poultney]

8 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

Didn’t realise there was too much wrong with the Special Hobby Ju 388s but happy to be put right on that.

Nah, just a lapse in memory. I forgot that existed, but it is apparently a limited run, and somewhat challenging. It's also a mixed media kit. Definitely looks buildable though

Edited September 21, 2019 by Adam Poultney

[Graham Boak]

There are a number of different kits of early Bf109s, going back to the rather nice Heller but also more recent issue(s).  I don't think that any of them are particularly terrible.

 

The Hasegawa Ju188 is indeed lovely.

 

The key problem with the Roden Heinkel was the lack of connection between the design of the inside and the outside.  No allowance seemed to have been made for the thickness of the parts, making it necessary to spent much boring time cutting down and sanding bulkheads, floorboards and wheel wells.  You can get a good result if you are prepared to put the time and effort in, but you do have to really want it.

[Adam Poultney]

4 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

There are a number of different kits of early Bf109s, going back to the rather nice Heller but also more recent issue(s).  I don't think that any of them are particularly terrible.

 

The Hasegawa Ju188 is indeed lovely.

 

The key problem with the Roden Heinkel was the lack of connection between the design of the inside and the outside.  No allowance seemed to have been made for the thickness of the parts, making it necessary to spent much boring time cutting down and sanding bulkheads, floorboards and wheel wells.  You can get a good result if you are prepared to put the time and effort in, but you do have to really want it.

Do you think the Roden kit would go together better if you just didn't bother with the interior and scratch built a basic interior of the right size?

[72modeler]

Funny you should mention the interior, Graham,as  I had given some thought, especially after reading a couple of build articles and a lot of discussion regarding how awful the kit was in that regard, to using a contour gauge to get accurate measurements of just the bulkheads and wheel bay structures that would be visible, and making new , more accurate ones out of plasticard, or using as many sections of the kit bulkheads as possible. My thinking being it would be faster and easier to make new bulkheads and wheel bays from scratch that would fit from the get-go,, rather  than dry fitting and trimming each bulkhead over and  over until a good fit was achieved. A real shame, as the early 111's were so  neat-looking, and the kit looked really good in the box....until the parts came off of the sprues!

 

Maybe ICM will grace us with a new-tool state of the art kit, and with some very basic engineering, they could get several variants out of a basic set of sprues common to them. As we say in Spanish, that will happen "Cuando los puercos vuelan!"

Mike

[e8n2]

4 hours ago, 72modeler said:

Maybe ICM will grace us with a new-tool state of the art kit, and with some very basic engineering, they could get several variants out of a basic set of sprues common to them. As we say in Spanish, that will happen "Cuando los puercos vuelan!"

Mike

I haven't build any ICM aircraft kits yet, but I certainly hope that the people who do the aircraft models are different than the ones that do the ship models.  I have been working on a 1/350 SMS Kronprinz and it has been a dog of a kit.  I will just be glad to be done with the thing.  It looked nice in the box, but when the parts started to be assembled, it was a different story.

Later,

Dave

[Graham Boak]

11 hours ago, Adam Poultney said:

Do you think the Roden kit would go together better if you just didn't bother with the interior and scratch built a basic interior of the right size?

I think it would, yes, although without having gone that way it is difficult to be certain. Power tools for sanding would have helped a lot. The fit of the wing to the fuselage wouId still be fiddly, I suspect.  I doubt that the latter approach would be any quicker, but creative work is more fun than chopping and filing.  

[fightersweep]

15 hours ago, Adam Poultney said:

I would love to build an early Bf109 in 1/72, but the only kit is apparently a nightmare.

I concur with Graham. The Heller Bf-109B is still a nice little kit, and still my go to when building an early 109. Likewise, the Heinkel He-112 by Heller is still a good kit worth picking up. The 109B is still currently available in a new boxing. The moulds are still nice and crisp and the new decals are pretty good. Old Heller decals were not so good back in the day. The 112 can still be found online easy enough. The Heller Bf 108, Arado 96, Fw-56 Stosser, Storch and Jungmeister are also worthy of a look if you want to go further than pre war bombers. I'll also echo what's been said about the Italeri Junkers 52 and 86. They are still nice kits worth considering.

 

Funny you should mention the dreaded Roden Heinkel. I'm looking at picking up the Lufthansa version. I must be mad!

 

Steve

Edited September 22, 2019 by fightersweep

[epozar]

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/forum/52-work-in-progress-aircraft/

[Adam Poultney]

1 hour ago, fightersweep said:

I concur with Graham. The Heller Bf-109B is still a nice little kit, and still my go to when building an early 109. Likewise, the Heinkel He-112 by Heller is still a good kit worth picking up. The 109B is still currently available in a new boxing. The moulds are still nice and crisp and the new decals are pretty good. Old Heller decals were not so good back in the day. The 112 can still be found online easy enough. 

The 112 is a B variant, I'd want to do the earlier A variant which is essentially an entirely different aircraft. I may try their 109 through...

[fightersweep]

1 minute ago, Adam Poultney said:

The 112 is a B variant, I'd want to do the earlier A variant which is essentially an entirely different aircraft. I may try their 109 through...

Yes! Of course. Been 30 years since I built one. Do give the 109 a try though, and whilst it's in my head, a Heinkel 51 is always a nice aircraft to have in the line up. I'm following your Do-17 build now. I've got a couple in the stash myself that I must get started on. I'm a big fan of the Do-17 myself, with the early versions up to the Z being my favourite. Regarding the RS Do-17s: I was reading Brett Green's review, and he was mightly impressed.

 

Steve

[Graham Boak]

See what you can find from the extinct HUMA range.  I particularly liked the Ar.81.   The Klemm 35 was a very early example and rather crude.  The Ju.288 was abandoned but he was encouraged to finish it and brought it out later.  It is however rather basic and I suspect more so than originally intended.

 

Over the years there was an enormous range of German subjects in the Airmodel range, though you may not fancy vacforms anyway and the Airmodel quality was somewhat variable at best.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Graham Boak