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1/72 NA Harvard help required


JimHead23

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Dear Britmodellers

 

I am very interested in producing a few RAF Harvard types and would be very grateful of any advice or instruction that anyone could provide me with.

I have pondered the internet and know that there are a few differences between early Harvard types and the Texans that are commercially available.

The Academy kit seems a good place to start for the MK II but presumably not the fabric bodied earlier model.

Any help as to where to start or reference material available would be gratefully accepted.

 

Regards

Jim

 

 

 

 

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If you really want to do a Mk.I then the best place to start is with one of the available Wirraway kits.   The fuselage, wing and canopy of the Mk.I are different from any T-6, whereas in modelling terms the Wirraway can almost be regarded as a Mk.I with a three-blade prop and a short rear canopy.  Some Mk.Is, or rather most Mk.Is at some time, will have had outer wing slats, which may affect your choice of individual aircraft to model.  You will also need a longer rear canopy (see below).

 

The Academy is a fairly nice kit but of a postwar T-6G, and so will require slight modifications to the canopy (extra framing), the tailwheel and aerials.  This will give you a Harvard Mk.IIA or a Mk.III, both of which are simply T-6s.  For a Harvard II or IIB you will also need a longer canopy, as these are Canadian-built and still have the fixed rearmost section appropriate to the pure pilot trainer, whereas the T-6 has a shorter opening rear section suitable for gunnery training.  Finding one of these canopies may be a problem.  An Azur NA-57 has one, as does an RS Yale, but you might prefer to buy the Falcon US aircraft in RAF Service set of vacform canopies which provides good renditions of both shapes.

 

The best cheap reference source is probably the Warbird Tech on the NA-16, which does cover the amazing array of variants this design went through.  There are a number of more expensive books that also cover the history, of which that by Dan Hagedorn is best but Peter Smith's is pretty good too.  Both have better reproduction of photographs than the Warbird Tech.

 

However, the RAF's Harvards only use three of the possible variants, so as long as you stick to these the subject is fairly straightforward.  However there is an immense variety of details to bear in mind should you stray to earlier members of the family. 

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Jim, can’t help you at all with reference to 1/72 scale, not my scale at all, but regarding the Mk I Harvard there is, to my knowledge, no kit available in any scale. A conversion exists for the 1/48 offerings which involves quite a lot of surgery. https://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?/topic/70767-na-harvard-mk-1-148th-scale/

 

I’m contemplating converting the KH 1/32 T6 kit, two of which I’ve built as Harvard MkIIs suitably adapted, to a MkI, but even finding decent reference material and drawings for that is proving difficult. The nearest decent stuff is for a Wirraway drawn up by Derek Buckmaster in Melbourne.

Sorry not to be help further, perhaps others can.

Regards

Max 

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HARVARD!  authored by Dave Fletcher and Doug MacPhail is by far the most comprehensive book ever published on the Canadian Harvards. Includes comprehensive info (incl scale plans etc) on all the locally built and imported airframes.

 

http://www.canadianflight.org/content/harvard

 

If you want serious info don't muck around with the other inferior books.

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2 hours ago, Hornet133 said:

HARVARD!  authored by Dave Fletcher and Doug MacPhail is by far the most comprehensive book ever published on the Canadian Harvards. Includes comprehensive info (incl scale plans etc) on all the locally built and imported airframes.

 

http://www.canadianflight.org/content/harvard

 

If you want serious info don't muck around with the other inferior books.

Anything of use in there about Mk Is?

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Early Mk.1 had longer span wings with rounded tips and a different rudder again a bit rounded. As well as the fabric sided fuselage. Like Graham said about the Wirraway similarities.

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10 hours ago, galgos said:

A conversion exists for the 1/48 offerings which involves quite a lot of surgery.

 

 

Doug McPhail who is a Harvard expert (he's written books on them) does not rate the conversion.....see

http://forum.aussiemodeller.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20

sadly the photos have gone

Quote

Colin Ford very kindly scanned an article relating to the MDC Harvard Mk I/Mk II conversion kit yesterday and I am simply appalled. The long and the short of it is the MDC conversion kit is inexcusable and useless. Most such kits (relating to the NA-16 family) are the same because nobody in the modelling firms does his homework. The major problem in almost every case is the length of the fuselage and the shape of the wing. For instance, the Harvard Mk I is 15" shorter than a Mk II and has a completely different wing. The Yale, aside from its fixed undercarriage, is 8" shorter than a Harvard II and once again, has a different wing - and yes, it's different from the Mk I wing as well. 

The following are some of the comments I made in an email to Colin, along with photographs I provided:

One, the Mk I fuselage appears to be the same length as the Mk II in the photo where they are laid side by side. The area around the tailwheel appears to be exactly the same, but it shouldn't be. The rudder post was extended 6" on the Mk II and in fact the Mk II fuselage was a full 15" longer than the Mk I in total.
Two, there does not appear to be any mention of new wings - the Mk II wing is totally different in shape and size! I am attaching a photo from the Mk I manual which clearly shows that there is no forward sweep on the trailing edge of a Mk I wing - and the sweep back on the leading edge is much steeper than on a MK II wing.
Three, the conversion kit rudder is pointed! Where that idea came from, I have no idea.

This conversion kit has completely missed the boat. The mould maker and draftsman never saw a Harvard Mk I (note: at the very least, they made no attempt to compare the Mk I and Mk II) before they produced this unfortunate kit.
 

 

Doug McPhail did a book on Swedish Harvards, 

 

in 1/48th

On 26/09/2016 at 07:08, ColFord said:

Alternative is to go the Belcher Bits Harvard Mk.I which appears to be significantly more accurate than the MDC conversion, altho somewhat more expensive.  In the Belcher Bits conversion it is all the relevant conversion bits plus the Occidental T6 for all the detail bits.

 

http://www.belcherbits.com/lines/kits/bk9.htm

 

I appreciate this is for 1/48th, but maybe of use for someone searching up Harvard Mk.I

 

HTH

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McPhail/Fletcher is a magnificent book on Canadian Harvards and although not dealing directly with the Mk.1 there is relevant information that can be teased out, but only if you know what you are looking for.  For example, it does show a short fuselage variant, the long canopy, and the Yale wing is only different at the wingtips.  The Air Britain book has many interesting photos but the plans for the Mk.1 unfortunately show the T-6 wing. 

 

Sorry, I did omit the extended rudder.

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Another point about the early Harvards is did it not have the rear canopy curved up sweep  like the Canadian built MkII and IV? Or was it the same as US ones with the straight lower edge?

 

 

(I have the Belcher resin rudder to 1/48th that is surplus to my needs.)

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5 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

Doug McPhail who is a Harvard expert (he's written books on them) does not rate the conversion.....see

http://forum.aussiemodeller.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20

 

To be honest Troy, I don’t rate ANY of the 1/48th kits of the Harvard, all pretty mediocre in my opinion. The MDC conversion is workable and produces something that looks like a Mk I. Is it 100% accurate? No, definitely not, but as the only option available (I wasn’t aware of a Belcher kit but will investigate!) to me it has to suffice for now. 

 

As Graham mentioned, the Air Publications book The Harvard File is sadly disappointing in its portrayal of the Mk 1 plan and profile. 

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Scale Aircraft Modelling magazine November 1983 (vol.6/2) has a conversion article by Jim Howard, from a T.6 to a Mk.I Harvard. It's in 1/48 using the old Monogram kit but there are plans (accuracy unknown) too and the article could be used with a 1/72 kit.

A IIB Harvard is best achieved, as somebody else here has said, by using one of the T.6 kits together with a Falcon vac RAF Harvard  canopy. Set 30 is what you need and it is designed for Heller or Airfix kits (unsure which one, old Airfix or Heller buy-in) . Hannants seem to have stock under their own part number FNCV3072.

The Belcher Bits Mk.I conversion, used with Italeri/Ocidental kits is indeed far better than the MDC affair by the way. I managed to get one direct from them without the usual accompanying Ocidental kit and used a locally purchased Italeri one instead (same kit) which worked out much cheaper on the shipping in to the UK and also saved on the dreaded import duty lottery, being below the threshold (without the Ocidental kit in the package).

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I seem to recall that CMK had announced several Harvard variants as 1/72 resin kits a few years back, but I  don't think there has been any progress on them. They would be pretty decent kits, but pricey, methinks.

Mike

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16 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

that CMK had announced several Harvard variants as 1/72 resin kits

I think you mean CMR. They are no longer developing new products so these will not appear.

There is an existing CMR Harvard canopy.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/heller-harvard-iib-cmr-resin-and-vacform-parts-arr-t491592.html

https://www.redroomodels.com/product/cmr-conversion-set-at-16-harvard-1-72/

 

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Yep- meant CMR- thanks for the correction. I was wondering why I wasn't seeing anything new on the website or catalog- now I know why, Blast!

Mike

Edited by 72modeler
corrected spelling
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Yes it is very odd that no new RAF type Harvard kits seem to be coming along. One could have assumed that the sheer numbers of airframes built might have elicited a bit more interest. SH to the rescue ? Even an Airfix retooled kit could have been an option. Not exciting enough perhaps. 

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"Sheer numbers of airframes" lets out the Harvard I, of which only 400 examples were made.

 

If you're tooling an injection-moulded kit of a second-line type it does make sense to make it  a representive of the versions that were made and used in reasonable numbers and by a wide variety of users in different countries. For the T-6 family that means anything prior to the BC-1A / AT-6 / SNJ-3 / Harvard II is really not a great bet. With some care and interchangeable parts you could make a kit which did all of that generation well enough for most people, and that would probably be a decent project for Airfix as a replacement for their old one.

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Agreed, but for the sake of argument you can add Wirraways to a Mk.I tooling with very little difference in the tooling.  That would considerably boost the sales potential as they did kill people.  Deliberately, as opposed to accidentally.  There may be a few other possible variations but in penny-packet numbers,

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Yes, good point. You would need to provide the different engine with its characteristic longitudinal finning on the reduction gearing, and the bigger prop, but they would be nice extras to have in any case for the spares box, including a go at my own hypothetical lottery-win Harvard.

 

Practically the only thing I don't like about the later Harvards is their regrettable cheap-skating on the direct-drive engine instead of the proper geared one that the Wirraway enjoyed.  Not only does it inflict a nasty noise on innocent bystanders, but it also costs the aeroplane a lot of performance for no really good reason. The first time I encountered one, coming out of a 145 hp Chipmunk, I kept waiting for the mighty 600 hp but it never really seemed to happen. Partly the weight of the beast but also poor conversion of fuel into usable thrust. Coming to a different one later, out of a 360 hp Yak-52 with its big geared prop, you keep having to remind yourself to not mind the lack of climb performance and just appreciate the vintage charm of the thing.  Fortunately the vintage charm is indeed substantial.

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