Short Sunderland Mk III - Italeri 1/72

[CedB]

8 hours ago, hendie said:

 

I have a habit of doing that.  My 'fix' is to use a round rat tail file rotating it in the hole - but also pushing the file more towards the side I need to open up (if that makes sense). That way you can get an off center hole back on center, and still round.

 

 

somebody needs to make a tool for that

 

Thanks hendie - glad it's not just me  It has been done (see below)

58 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

It'll arrive in a flipping big envelope marked 'addressee pays postage'....

Quite right Terry. He'll need to substitute custard powder for the flour in this instance.

This would be my goto method also due to failings in this area.

 

Looking forward to seeing you make this big-shouldered beast Ced with great anticipation I must say.

 

Believe that the original anchor Shorts proposed was a more elaborate affair:

[snip picture]

Thanks Tony  No need for the mixer matey - I have plenty of filler here!

Nice anchor…

 

Frustrating bit of messing this morning.

The rat tail file came out (thanks hendie) and the holes were rounded. But wait… the existing holes have recesses so that the clear part sits in the hole; do I need to do that to make the windows flush?

 

 

Well, yes and no… even with the recesses the kit windows don't sit flush

Off to visit LDSModeller's great build of the Airfix Mk III that has so much reference material.

Flush windows. 

 

I think it'll be easier to add the windows with ClearFix later like this one on the right (not set):

 

 

 

Especially as I realised I hadn't painted the internals yet.

And I lost one of the kit windows, somewhere.

Idiot.

Alan also suggested using tube for the windows - I will ponder that.

 

More decorating today so there will be a pause 🐾

[malpaso]

I found (on mk.Ì) that all the circular portholes had dimples visible.  Several along the centre line fell in so I replaced with micro crystal clear after painting, these replacements looked miles better.  

With the additional portholes I drilled a hole then gently enlarged by rotating a half round rat tail needle file, test fitting with the plastic window every now and again.  The half round usually can get to a sensible diameter easily, the full rat tail is a bit small.

BTW the proper tool would be a tapered broach, it has five sides which apparently prevents drift, by some mysteriously physical property.  I have never used one nor found one in those handy "estate" redistributions of late modellers' tools.  I guess I could Google and buy one new but where's the fun in that?

Cheers

Will

 

[CedB]

Thanks Will  

I bought some broaches for this sort of work:

 

 

… but I have no idea how to use them, apart from poking them in and out of the hole?

 

In other (premature) news while hanging the Blackbird I made room for the Sunderland flying, as Bill requested, in formation with the Nimrod:

 

 

Won't be long now??

[philp]

Missed the last build but I am here for one of my favorite planes.

[keefr22]

On 20/09/2019 at 12:12, CedB said:

The panel lines aren't too bad

 

Are you due a visit to Specsavers Ced? They are truly awful! 

 

Still, at least yours will get built unlike mine which has been banished back into  it's box and buried at the very bottom of the biggest pile of kits in the stash. There to remain for eternity. Or at least until I shuffle off this mortal coil and the kids chuck it in a skip!!

 

Really looking forward to seeing how yours turns out. Shouldn't be too long a wait....

 

Any popcorn left?!

 

Keith

 

PS one of our club members recently bought the Special Hobby kit and the surface detailing is light years better than Italeri's 'effort'.

[LDSModeller]

17 minutes ago, keefr22 said:

PS one of our club members recently bought the Special Hobby kit and the surface detailing is light years better than Italeri's 'effort'.

Italeri's Sunderland Panel lines given - they can be dealt with by filler etc.

The Italeri kit in many other instances is much better than the Special Hobby kit accuracy wise.

So as not to take away from Ced's build thread, anyone interested in the SH kit can read my post

in the Flying Boat GB where I am building the SH kit

Regards

 

Alan

[perdu]

1 hour ago, keefr22 said:

 

Are you due a visit to Specsavers Ced? They are truly awful! 

 

Still, at least yours will get built unlike mine which has been banished back into  it's box and buried at the very bottom of the biggest pile of kits in the stash. There to remain for eternity. Or at least until I shuffle off this mortal coil and the kids chuck it in a skip!!

 

Really looking forward to seeing how yours turns out. Shouldn't be too long a wait....

 

Any popcorn left?!

 

Keith

 

PS one of our club members recently bought the Special Hobby kit and the surface detailing is light years better than Italeri's 'effort'.

I took a few pictures of Hendon's Sunderland, I will pop them into Postimage tomorrow and attempt to show him how smooth it ought to be

 

Ced, order filler

 

Much filler

[CedB]

2 hours ago, philp said:

Missed the last build but I am here for one of my favorite planes.

Welcome Phil  

1 hour ago, keefr22 said:

 

Are you due a visit to Specsavers Ced? They are truly awful! 

 

Still, at least yours will get built unlike mine which has been banished back into  it's box and buried at the very bottom of the biggest pile of kits in the stash. There to remain for eternity. Or at least until I shuffle off this mortal coil and the kids chuck it in a skip!!

 

Really looking forward to seeing how yours turns out. Shouldn't be too long a wait....

 

Any popcorn left?!

 

Keith

 

PS one of our club members recently bought the Special Hobby kit and the surface detailing is light years better than Italeri's 'effort'.

Who said that? Thanks Keith  Bill has suggested buckets of PPP so I guess I may need to fill things...  

59 minutes ago, LDSModeller said:

Italeri's Sunderland Panel lines given - they can be dealt with by filler etc.

The Italeri kit in many other instances is much better than the Special Hobby kit accuracy wise.

So as not to take away from Ced's build thread, anyone interested in the SH kit can read my post

in the Flying Boat GB where I am building the SH kit

Regards

 

Alan

Thanks Alan  Please stay with me, but others might, like me, want to look at Alan’s Mk V here. 

11 minutes ago, perdu said:

I took a few pictures of Hendon's Sunderland, I will pop them into Postimage tomorrow and attempt to show him how smooth it ought to be

 

Ced, order filler

 

Much filler

Thanks Bill  I’ve ordered some tube for the windows and am pondering how to make them look right. We shall see...

[billn53]

I can’t believe I missed the start of this. Ced, do you never stop?

I love these big seaplanes but don’t have the room. So I’ll be jealously following this build. 

- Bill

[CedB]

Thanks Bill and welcome  

Use the ceiling - plenty of room up there!

[perdu]

9 hours ago, CedB said:

9 hours ago, perdu said:

I took a few pictures of Hendon's Sunderland, I will pop them into Postimage tomorrow and attempt to show him how smooth it ought to be

 

Ced, order filler

 

Much filler

Thanks Bill  I’ve ordered some tube for the windows and am pondering how to make them look right. We shall see...

Ced my friend I am not so worried (nor should you) about the openable portholes

Hendon's has many of them open, many shut and when shut a scribed circle will more than suffice

 

I rather refer to the panel lines

 

Here a Sunderland, in the museum

 

 

 

 

I know these show some linear distortion and hence visibility but these are the result of a very hard life in service AND a blooming hard time at the musuem

 

(I know the man who was 'owner*' of the museum during the time she was placed into the hall and have heard harrowing tales of what they had to do to get her in)

 

She'll NEVER fly again

 

Oh here's a free interior picture, who knows...

 

Looking up the fuselage  to the tail turret

 

Have funs chap

 

 

*owner of RAF Hendon Museum, obviously a serving officer with a problem or - ten

Now there is a civilian structure, blame them

[perdu]

By the way, Hendon have constructed a deliberately awkward obstacle course that you need to traverse to enter the big old bird because of difficult move-ability inside her

 

I have two damaged vertebrae and both knees fail to bend enough for ease of kneeling for example

 

Get your self through the barrier gateway, it is very definitely worth it inside

Definitely

[CedB]

Thanks Bill - really appreciate the pics matey  

 

For completeness here are some more pictures that Bill sent me yesterday:

 

 

…and another of the bomb rack:

 

 

The opening windows do seem to protrude from the skin a bit so the tube I've ordered will come in handy following Alan's technique. He says in his build that "they are All the diameter of the opening porthole which in 1:1 scale is 37.5cm, in 1/72 scale is close to 5.2mm. In reality there are only some portholes that open on the lower deck and one under the wing (more later), the rest do not open and the diameter in 1:1 scale is 30.5cm (note this is the transparency diameter for the opening porthole also), which in 1/72 scale is 4.2mm" and that the Evergreen 227 has a 5.5mm external and 4.2mm internal diameter so pretty close. That said the kit isn't that far off:

 

 

 

…but the panel lines with their rivets are pretty nasty eh?

 

 

The panel lines on the wings aren't much better:

 

 

I see some scratch work and lots of filler in my future…

 

What do we think? I could go over the whole model with the Vallejo tube and its nozzle, or PPP and a spreader, but how about some sort of filling primer?

Any suggestions?

I do have some Halfords 'Plastic Filler Primer' but it's yellow and it smells a bit.

[Biggles87]

I’ve got a Sunderland story ( would you expect anything less? ) if you’d like to hear it.

 

John

[CedB]

Yes please John, always up for one of your stories  

[perdu]

The ONLY drawback with the Halfords primer filler is that there is a huge amount of rubbing back to get back to the kit plastic

 

As you see the Italeri skin is a Comedy Club farrago of tosh

[CedB]

Thanks Bill  

I've found your S61N just before and after spraying with the filler and @tomprobert's advice on one build here.

Looks like the filling primer might be the way to go (if my tin still works).

Plenty to be getting on with on the internals I guess…

[perdu]

Plenty but

 

 

In the roof of the room?

 

I do have other pics taken a few years back if you decide to 'do a Tonybaron' inside

 

[Biggles87]

Sunderland story.

When I joined ATC as a callow youth there were still meany ex-aircrew in the job. One such was a jovial chap named Harry Shepherd who had been on Sunderland’s in the 1950s and was involved in the Malaya ‘ emergency ‘. While he was there they had a visit from Gilbert Harding, a journalist and radio/TV presenter for the BBC and Harry’s crew were selected to take him on a trip with them. Part of the sortie was to drop some small anti-personnel bombs on a suspected rebel encampment in the jungle, and as they approached the area and the bombs were loaded onto the racks ready to be winched out under the wings Harding remarked that it was a very time consuming and complicated procedure just to drop a few bombs. One of the crew replied “ oh, we’re only doing this for your benefit, usually we just chuck ‘em out of the hatch “ so when the hatches were opened,Harding picked up one of the bombed and threw it out, seeming very pleased with himself until someone pointed out that you had to arm them first. Harry said that he was very quiet for the rest of the trip.

 

John

[hendie]

3 hours ago, CedB said:

What do we think? I could go over the whole model with the Vallejo tube and its nozzle, or PPP and a spreader, but how about some sort of filling primer?

Any suggestions?

 

Ced,  based on Bills photo's, I'd be tempted to use a hard filler (more sanding I know, but...) sanded flush, and on the final finish I'd represent panel lines with light pencil strokes - They would show up nicely on a white finish (you are doing a white finish aren't you?)

 

 

 

[keefr22]

4 hours ago, CedB said:

What do we think?

 

Obviously Ced it's your choice, but if mine was going on the  ceiling I think I'd be tempted to build it 'as is'. The reason mine is back in its box is I started trying to fill & 'refine' the panel lines and after a few days seemingly getting nowhere it just sucked the will to live out of me. Maybe just filling them all in might be an easy fix....

 

I've a Sunderland story too. Back about 50 years ago the Hendon machine was still at RAF Pembroke Dock. My late dad at the time worked for Mothers Pride bread, his round being all around the Pembroke area. I used to help him on a Saturday and after leaving Swansea at 4am one of our first drops was RAF Pembroke Dock. Being ex mob he was welcome in the Sergeants Mess for brekkie. I would have been too, but instead preferred a pint of milk and free rein of the Sunderland! I have about 40 hours as 'pilot in command' in my 'logbook', and lost count of the number of U-Boats I 'bothered' as they appeared below us (if only in my vivid imagination!)

 

Keith

[perdu]

Jealous Keith, my dad flew in them from Pembroke Dock in 44/45

I'd have loved that

 

[TheBaron]

6 hours ago, CedB said:

What do we think?

We think that Italeri got their surface detail inspiration from Waters/Gilmour/Mason/Wright:

 

I had a lot of similar issues on the engine tower of the Do-18 Ced (bloody great trenches) and found the best approach then to be using a Stanley blade held twixt thumb and forefinger as a spreader for Humbrol filler. Small amounts each time scraped at 45° across the lines and there was very little excess to sand away afterward.

 

At this size I reckon hendie's pencil lining technique is a winner for scale effect subsequently.

6 hours ago, CedB said:

I do have some Halfords 'Plastic Filler Primer' but it's yellow and it smells a bit.

 Never trust anything that's yellow and smells a bit. Particularly snow.

[philp]

When I get to building my kits I will probably ignore the lines and just give em a good coat of paint.

 

Filling all those lines might look a little more realistic but life is too short when you have as many to build as I do.

 

But then, to each their own I always say and I might go in and fill the none opening portholes.

[CedB]

21 hours ago, perdu said:

Plenty but

 

In the roof of the room?

 

I do have other pics taken a few years back if you decide to 'do a Tonybaron' inside

 

Thanks Bill - good point… I think I'll just do my usual painting of the kit bits; there's some PE so it shouldn't be too arduous to make it look nice  

 

21 hours ago, Biggles87 said:

Sunderland story.

When I joined ATC as a callow youth there were still meany ex-aircrew in the job. One such was a jovial chap named Harry Shepherd who had been on Sunderland’s in the 1950s and was involved in the Malaya ‘ emergency ‘. While he was there they had a visit from Gilbert Harding, a journalist and radio/TV presenter for the BBC and Harry’s crew were selected to take him on a trip with them. Part of the sortie was to drop some small anti-personnel bombs on a suspected rebel encampment in the jungle, and as they approached the area and the bombs were loaded onto the racks ready to be winched out under the wings Harding remarked that it was a very time consuming and complicated procedure just to drop a few bombs. One of the crew replied “ oh, we’re only doing this for your benefit, usually we just chuck ‘em out of the hatch “ so when the hatches were opened,Harding picked up one of the bombed and threw it out, seeming very pleased with himself until someone pointed out that you had to arm them first. Harry said that he was very quiet for the rest of the trip.

 

John

Great story John, as usual - keep 'em coming  

 

19 hours ago, hendie said:

 

Ced,  based on Bills photo's, I'd be tempted to use a hard filler (more sanding I know, but...) sanded flush, and on the final finish I'd represent panel lines with light pencil strokes - They would show up nicely on a white finish (you are doing a white finish aren't you?)

 

Thanks hendie  Is sanding a model of this size one of those 'things that people find therapeutic'? Sounds awful to me. Like an empty hospital, I don't have the patience*

 

* That's much funnier if you say it, rather than writing it.

 

19 hours ago, keefr22 said:

 

Obviously Ced it's your choice, but if mine was going on the  ceiling I think I'd be tempted to build it 'as is'. The reason mine is back in its box is I started trying to fill & 'refine' the panel lines and after a few days seemingly getting nowhere it just sucked the will to live out of me. Maybe just filling them all in might be an easy fix....

 

I've a Sunderland story too. Back about 50 years ago the Hendon machine was still at RAF Pembroke Dock. My late dad at the time worked for Mothers Pride bread, his round being all around the Pembroke area. I used to help him on a Saturday and after leaving Swansea at 4am one of our first drops was RAF Pembroke Dock. Being ex mob he was welcome in the Sergeants Mess for brekkie. I would have been too, but instead preferred a pint of milk and free rein of the Sunderland! I have about 40 hours as 'pilot in command' in my 'logbook', and lost count of the number of U-Boats I 'bothered' as they appeared below us (if only in my vivid imagination!)

 

Keith

Thanks Keith - now there's an idea  I might adopt that to be honest…

Great story - what a lucky little bug- chap you were!

 

18 hours ago, perdu said:

Jealous Keith, my dad flew in them from Pembroke Dock in 44/45

I'd have loved that

 

Me too Bill, colour me green  Thanks again for all the photos.

 

16 hours ago, TheBaron said:

We think that Italeri got their surface detail inspiration from Waters/Gilmour/Mason/Wright:

[snip pic]

 

I had a lot of similar issues on the engine tower of the Do-18 Ced (bloody great trenches) and found the best approach then to be using a Stanley blade held twixt thumb and forefinger as a spreader for Humbrol filler. Small amounts each time scraped at 45° across the lines and there was very little excess to sand away afterward.

 

At this size I reckon hendie's pencil lining technique is a winner for scale effect subsequently.

 Never trust anything that's yellow and smells a bit. Particularly snow.

Thanks Tony - great tip  If I were to take on the great 'trench filling campaign of 2019' that would be the way I'd go I think… have I mentioned I hate sanding?

Yellow snow? Reminds me of the old joke about the guy who chucked his girlfriend… better left for after-dinner drinks I think

 

13 hours ago, philp said:

When I get to building my kits I will probably ignore the lines and just give em a good coat of paint.

 

Filling all those lines might look a little more realistic but life is too short when you have as many to build as I do.

 

But then, to each their own I always say and I might go in and fill the none opening portholes.

Thanks Phil  Another good tip… thicker paint, got it.

Portholes I may do as I've ordered the tube - we shall see…

 

Possibly some internals later but DIY calls… gggnnnngghhh