Pre War Hurricanes

[Merv]

We're the first hurricanes issued to squadrons in silver dope? Or were they camouflaged from the beginning?

[Jure Miljevic]

Upper surfaces were camouflaged from the beginning. Lower surfaces were Aluminium (metal) or silver dope (fabric). Cheers

Jure

[Merv]

Thanks Jure, I was hoping to do a fabric wing hurricane in overall silver.  I don't want to do a "what if."

[72modeler]

29 minutes ago, Merv said:

Thanks Jure, I was hoping to do a fabric wing hurricane in overall silver.  I don't want to do a "what if."

Do the prototype, K5083- she changed appearance several times, as changes were made in the canopy, radiator, undercart, exhausts, etc. so if you choose her as she looked towards the end, she would be pretty close  to an early Mk 1, but the gear doors were different, but easy to do. I'm saving one of my Airfix new-tool ragwings to do the conversion. There are decal sheets with her serials and markings- the flush exhaust ports will be the hardest part of the conversion. A very pretty and distinctive Hurricane- "The First of the Many," so to speak!

Mike

 

https://www.thisdayinaviation.com/6-november-1935/

 

 

[Jure Miljevic]

I am afraid this narrows your choices down to the prototype:

Of course, there is plenty to choose from if you decide to build metal wing silver Hurricane. Cheers

Jure

[Graham Boak]

The first Hurricane with a cs Rotol prop was overall Aluminium, with a slightly fuller nose to match the spinner.  And a civil registration G-AFKX.

[Troy Smith]

5 hours ago, Merv said:

I was hoping to do a fabric wing hurricane in overall silver. 

 

FWIW,  there are overall aluminium dope Hurricanes,  but not fabric wing. 

Some in  Rhodesia Air Training Group 

and a few Mk.IV's of 6 Sq were overall Aluminium dope post war

Can't find any pics at the mo

 

and, this is always worth a read for Hurricane camo and markings

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings/03-Hawker-Hurricane

 

 

4 hours ago, 72modeler said:

the flush exhaust ports will be the hardest part of the conversion

sadly, the more you look, the more there is.  I'd suggest the redone fuselage panel lines (they are all different) and deeper cockpit maybe trickier,  though the too deep Airfix canopy maybe about right for the prototype...

note also the different shape of upper cowling,  the different panel lines, (oddly enough similar to the very inaccurate Airfix IIC kit..) deeper canopy... lots of work..

 

There have been threads on this before.

I'll edit any good ones in later, 

 

5 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Lower surfaces were Aluminium (metal) or silver dope (fabric)

The metal and fabric was all painted with aluminium dope

as seen here

 

HTH

[Merv]

Since Gladiator I were finished in silver dope I thought some mk 1 Hurricanes may have been.

[Work In Progress]

Sadly not, as they do look splendid if you build them in those schemes.

But this was the first production Hurricane, in the scheme which it was built in 1937

 

And this was the appearance of the first squadron service Hurricanes, in use by 111 Squadron 

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Work In Progress

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello

Thanks for correction, Troy, duly noted. Merv, for more information about silver Hurricanes I would warmly recommend Hawker Hurricane and Sea Hurricane (FlightCraft) book by (I believe) our member Tony O'Toole with Martin Derry and Neil Robinson. Apart from some of the photos Troy linked us to there are others, including a photo of polished metal and silver dope G-AFKX Graham suggested and several post-war machines like IIAF Hurricane, converted into a two-seater. The book also includes colour profiles and photos of models of several other silver painted machines. Cheers

Jure

Edited September 14, 2019 by Jure Miljevic
spelling errors corrected (hopefully all of them)

[Graham Boak]

Surely the most difficult part of the conversion to K5083 would be the higher narrower cowling because of the different valve gear on the early Merlin?

[Merv]

Thanks everyone, my question is answered.

[Folkbox1]

I saw a programme on TV recently - I think it was something like "The True Cost of the War".  On of the presenters on it was Andy Robertshaw, who pops up quite a lot in these types of programmes talking about planes, tanks, guns etc.  In this particular episode they were talking about the Battle of Britain and he said that one reason the Hurricanes took on the bomber because the Bf.109 had a ceiling of over 30,000 feet whereas the Hurricanes ceiling was only 17,000 feet.  I've tried to find this info on the net but only find a ceiling mentioned of one similar to the 109.

 

Was he correct? 

[FinnAndersen]

3 minutes ago, Folkbox1 said:

I saw a programme on TV recently - I think it was something like "The True Cost of the War".  On of the presenters on it was Andy Robertshaw, who pops up quite a lot in these types of programmes talking about planes, tanks, guns etc.  In this particular episode they were talking about the Battle of Britain and he said that one reason the Hurricanes took on the bomber because the Bf.109 had a ceiling of over 30,000 feet whereas the Hurricanes ceiling was only 17,000 feet.  I've tried to find this info on the net but only find a ceiling mentioned of one similar to the 109.

 

Was he correct? 

One reason I've heard was that the Hurricanes guns were more closely grouped than the Spitfire, so would have more punch.

 

I suspect, however, that the simple idea of putting your best fighter against their best may be the reason.

 

/Finn

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Folkbox1 said:

I saw a programme on TV recently - I think it was something like "The True Cost of the War".  On of the presenters on it was Andy Robertshaw, who pops up quite a lot in these types of programmes talking about planes, tanks, guns etc.  In this particular episode they were talking about the Battle of Britain and he said that one reason the Hurricanes took on the bomber because the Bf.109 had a ceiling of over 30,000 feet whereas the Hurricanes ceiling was only 17,000 feet.  I've tried to find this info on the net but only find a ceiling mentioned of one similar to the 109.

 

Was he correct? 

No.

The hurricane max speed was at about 17,000 ft though

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/hurricane-I.html

 

see the various tables.

 

The Hurricane Mk.I was outclassed by the Bf109E in strict terms,  but this does not take into account pilot ability, and the Germans tended to disparage the Hurricane,  famously described as a "tired old puffer" by a pilot later shot down by one.

One the best overall assessments of the BoB is Steven Bungay's "the Most Dangerous Enemy"  which goes into considerable detail on everything. There are many factors to be considered.

 

It should be noted that British BoB aces flew both types evenly.

 

The Hurricane is usually considered a better gun platform, being more stable, and ideally was sent after bombers.

In a dogfight with a Bf109, or a turning fight, a Hurricane would out turn the 109 and be on the 109's tail after 7 turns. (IIRC)

 

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello

In the same source Troy mentioned there is also a description of an incident during battle of Britain when 253 Sqn Hurricanes ran across Big Wing formation, consisting mostly of Hurricane squadrons as well, at the height of 31000 ft. Also, I believe division of labour between Spitfires and Hurricanes was based on reasoning similar to what Finn suggested. I suspect it did not work very well in practice as it demanded a high degree of cooperation from Luftwaffe. Germans tried more or less the same philosophy later during Reich defence although they, at least in a case of Bf 110 and Me 410 heavy fighters, fared far worse. Cheers

Jure

[Graham Boak]

The problem with the big wing theory in the BoB was the time taken to assemble the formation, not any shortage  of grouped targets.  Also because the Spitfires and Hurricanes climbed at different speeds, it was normal for them to climb separately, which would further complicate any desire to combine into a single formation.

 

I would also suggest that 31000ft was rather near the service ceiling of both types, so they'd be slow, wallowing around, and finding it very difficult to keep formation.  Not to mention being well above any German formation.

 

That's not to say it never happened.  As demonstrated many times, the British military approach does tend to try something - anything - at least once, however foolish given considered thought.

[Jure Miljevic]

Very probably 31000 ft was indicated and not true altitude so it may have been off for a few thousand ft at worst. However, it is difficult to imagine an altimeter setting error, that would have amounted to 14000 ft. Cheers

Jure

[Folkbox1]

5 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

No.

The hurricane max speed was at about 17,000 ft though

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/hurricane-I.html

 

Thanks😊

 

I rewound it to check. I'm sure he said that was their ceiling

[malpaso]

I think the Hurris vs bomber and Spitfire vs fighters might have been an intention, but not sure I've seen much mention of it in period books.  The important job was to down bombers, I've just finished First Light and plenty of combats are Spits on Bombers whilst keeping an eye out for snappers.  

[Smithy]

4 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The problem with the big wing theory in the BoB was the time taken to assemble the formation, not any shortage  of grouped targets.

 

Scrambling and subsequent assembly of the Big Wing and successful interception of a raid at correct altitude and positioning was one of the major problems of it, and it's for that reason why the Big Wing's best successes were during the week of 7th to 15th September, a time when the Luftwaffe were using massed raids nearing the maximum depth of their penetration. Another often overlooked problem with the Big Wing was the trouble with command and control of it. The lack of multi channel radio communication with the squadrons inside the wing meant that the formation lacked tactical flexibility, meaning the wings were restricted to following their wing leader. This less than perfect radio situation also meant that the Big Wing formation tended to fracture and degrade quickly after initial engagement with the enemy meaning that control of it as a fighting entity was usually only during the first contact with the enemy.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Smithy
Typo

[Eric Mc]

11 hours ago, malpaso said:

I think the Hurris vs bomber and Spitfire vs fighters might have been an intention, but not sure I've seen much mention of it in period books.  The important job was to down bombers, I've just finished First Light and plenty of combats are Spits on Bombers whilst keeping an eye out for snappers.  

I've always been a bit dubious about the accuracy of the claim that "Hurricanes went for the bombers whilst the Spitfires went for the fighters". My take on it was that there three times as many Hurricanes in use compared to Spitfires so it is likely that most interceptions were by Hurricanes and the Hurricanes intercepted whatever enemy aircraft they came across - irrespective of what type of aircraft they happened to be.

 

I suppose there might have been occasions when a mixed group of Hurricanes and Spitfires made an interception against the same group of incoming German aircraft but I really doubt that there was a co-ordinated attack based on the Spitfires specifically going after 109s and 110s and Hurricanes going after He111s. Dorniers 17/215s and Ju88s. I would guess that the real decisive factor was whichever intercepting squadron had the best height advantage at the moment of interception determined who went for what. 

[Orso]

Now I want a prototype Hurricane. Dangerous stuff reading forums. I have a plan for the exhausts

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/holes-instead-of-exhaust-stubs-t479167.html 

 

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Orso said:

Now I want a prototype Hurricane. Dangerous stuff reading forums. I have a plan for the exhausts

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/holes-instead-of-exhaust-stubs-t479167.html 

 

depends on scale.  in 72nd that would work, but larger, hmm.

the exhaust are basically the same as the Fury, with the lip of the short pipe protruding

 

compare

 

the stub exhausts can be seen

 

 

Years ago I tried using brass tubing squashed to an oval section, which was OK

seems Photobuckets 'new' piece of crap apart from, the intrusive logo is to blur the image....

 

lets see if this works...

thin walled brass tube, 2mm diameter, which i carefully squashed into ovals with the flat bit on some pliers, to get the flat sides.

Harder was drilling out the plastic card. Two small holes and made into an oval with a scalpel.

Sorry, not the best photo, but should give you an idea.

This was a tight fit, and you'd need to scribe a line round the pipes after fitting. The brass tube also needs a careful scraping to thin the edge.

You'd then need to fit this plasticard plate into the fuselage, and blend in, and then fit the brass tube.

 

 

[Smithy]

2 hours ago, Eric Mc said:

I've always been a bit dubious about the accuracy of the claim that "Hurricanes went for the bombers whilst the Spitfires went for the fighters". My take on it was that there three times as many Hurricanes in use compared to Spitfires so it is likely that most interceptions were by Hurricanes and the Hurricanes intercepted whatever enemy aircraft they came across - irrespective of what type of aircraft they happened to be.

 

I suppose there might have been occasions when a mixed group of Hurricanes and Spitfires made an interception against the same group of incoming German aircraft but I really doubt that there was a co-ordinated attack based on the Spitfires specifically going after 109s and 110s and Hurricanes going after He111s. Dorniers 17/215s and Ju88s. I would guess that the real decisive factor was whichever intercepting squadron had the best height advantage at the moment of interception determined who went for what. 

 

Actually it's not inaccurate at all. Even before the Battle started and after the experiences in France it was accepted within the RAF and AM that the Hurricane was inferior in several principal performance aspects to that of its primary fighter opposition (the 109), these being speed and rate of climb and dive. For that reason controllers (and even Park) tried whenever possible to send Spitfire squadrons and flights against the escorts whilst Hurricane formations attempted to tackle the bombers. This is very well documented. However due to the hectic nature of fighting and Fighter Command attempting to intercept raids, often with little time and with resources stretched, it was rarely possible to perfectly coordinate both Hurricane and Spitfire formation in such optimal fashion.