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Neil.C

Colour scheme for FW TA 152H?

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Had the Revell version of this model given to me and I've just had a look at the painting chart which gives colours in RM numbers.

 

I haven't a clue what they are just a colour box top.

 

Anyone give me some Humbrol numbers that are similar?

 

It's this one....

 

 

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Ta152H colour schemes are a bit of a minefield, like many other late-war Luftwaffe aircraft.  You're probably looking for the late-war greens, RLM 82 and 83  Braunviolet (can't remember the RLM number for that) and RLM 76 Lichtblau for the undersides, although there is some evidence that aircraft could be seen with unpainted or part-primed, part-painted undersides.  Humbrol did produce some of these colours a few years ago but quality left quite a lot to be desired; I think Xtracolour/Xtracrylix do some of them or you could try Sovereign Hobbies' Colourcoats range. 

By the time the 152H saw the light of day Germany's aircraft industry was suffering from catastrophic shortages of everything except allied bombing and interdiction of supply lines, so any adherence to the specified colours may be more jam than judgement.  I believe that Luftwaffe paints of the day came as tubes of pigment which were required to be mixed in a certain ratio with an appropriate solvent before application, but in the dying days if the Third Reich anything, apparently, went in in order to get the aeroplanes out of the factory door, despite there being little or no fuel to test fly them or get them to an operational unit.

Edited by stever219

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Humbrol colours for the Ta 152:

RLM 81 Braunviolett (No. 251)

RLM 82 Olivgrün (No. 252)

RLM 76 Lichtblau (No. 247)

The spinner is RLM 25 Hellgrün which Humbrol doesn't specifically do. No.101 Mid Green might get you in the ballpark.

The interior was RLM 66 Schwarzgrau, for which I find that No. 67 Tank Grey will do.

 

I'll echo Steve's sentiment that the Colourcoats paints would be the best way to go.

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the colours on the box are meant to be RLM 76 (underside) and RLM 81 & RLM 82 uppers,  Humbrol do or did these in their paint range.

https://www.humbrol.com/us-en/news/new-humbrol-rlm-colours

 


247 RLM 76 Lichtblau Matt
251 RLM 81 Dunkelbraun Matt
252 RLM 82 Olivgrun Matt
253 RLM 83 Dunkel-Grun Matt

 

Given the low contrast in the few pics, I'd suggest 251 and 253 uppers

 

the actual answer Neil may be more complex....  and may make you wish you had never asked....

 

2 minutes ago, stever219 said:

By the time the 152H saw the light of day Germany's aircraft industry was suffering from catastrophic shortages of everything except allied bombing and interdiction of supply lines, so any adherence to the specified colours may be more jam than judgement.

my only point on this, the Ta152 was the new flagship plane on the block,  and were at JG301 in early 1945, and thew few photos show it was done to the specifications.  

 

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As usual, great and helpful responses Gents, thanks. 👍

 

I'll digest all the info and see how I fare.

 

Thanks again. 

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Gunze and Vallejo Air do these shades as well- those would be infinitely preferable to the fluids marketed by Humbrol these days.

 

Another shade noted on late war Luftwaffe birds was the infamous "RLM84" greenish lower surfaces colour quite similar to RAF Sky. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

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Unless you subscribe to the new “information” that RLM 83 is actually a dark blue.  I remain to be convinced.

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I don't have a spray gun and to be honest am not too anal about accuracy of something that is a bit "up in the air" so to speak.

 

I'll post a pic when it's done.  🙂

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13 hours ago, Jordi said:

Unless you subscribe to the new “information” that RLM 83 is actually a dark blue.  I remain to be convinced.

No-one is suggesting that the Ta152 was camouflaged with dark blue.  However, re RLM 83, there is no contemporary evidence for it being dark green, and a dark blue was fairly widely used by Ju88s in Italy.

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15 hours ago, Neil.C said:

I don't have a spray gun and to be honest am not too anal about accuracy of something that is a bit "up in the air" so to speak.

 

I'll post a pic when it's done.  🙂

Neil, I'll probably get a roasting for this but if I'm reading you correctly, you want something that looks about right, so for late war Luftwaffe colours RLM 82,81 & the unofficial 84 try something like Humbrol 116,98 & 93, maybe add a little white or pale grey to the latter but painted thus & decaled, it will look not too different to using the Revell colour calls from memory.

For colour A, use Humbrol 240, Colour B use Hu 117, M use Hu 116, E use 98, I use Hu93 with some light grey added, J the prop colour use Hu 91. These won't be too far off the Revell colours imho.

These after looking at the Revell instructions.

Steve.

Edited by stevehnz

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Thanks Steve!

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Hello Neil,

 

after the war one (at least, some say two) Ta-152H was/were transported to England for testing and evaluation. A British report says that the aircraft was painted with two greens. The is no mention about brown or drab colours. The report especially mentions that one of the greens was very bright.

 

If you look at the Humbrol's "new" Luftwaffe range, RLM 81 is best described as drab or brown. These paints match with colour charts published for example in Michael Ullmann's excellent books. But if you compare those charts with the old Monogram painting guide, you will notice a clear difference. Reason? Thomas Hitchcock studied real Luftwaffe aircraft and their paint work. Colour charts published later focus more on the specification colours than on observed colours.

 

Using Monogram's painting guide and Michael Ullmann's report I painted my DO-335 with Hu 80 and Hu 155. The latter was clearly "wrong"; I just didn't read Ulmann's report carefully enough.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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Hello, I think I've posted this a dozen times, here it is again. The Aeroplane Spotter dated November, 1945 published a report of the captured Ta 152 W.Nr. 150168 the former "Green 9" of Stab JG 301 flown by Willi Reshke. Here is what this report says about the camouflage colors; " The Ta 152 is camouflaged on the upper surfaces of the wings, fuselage and tailplane,, , and the fuselage sides, in various shades of green. On the fuselage the effect is mottled, but on the wings two greens make a zigzag pattern. The whole of underside of this particular machine " Werke Nr." 150168 is sky blue, while the black spinner is enhanced by a white spiral." Later the spinner was repainted red. So there you have it. No mention of RLM 81 Braunviolett at all. It doesn't get much better than this.

     Cheers, Jerry

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Well really no mention of any RLM color designations, just his written description of the colors.  I don’t think, given virtually no knowledge of RLM camouflage colors among non-Germans when that was written, that describing RLM 81 as a “green” is terribly far fetched, do you?

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There was (and quite possibly still is) some confusion amongst some paint manufacturers with regards to the correct RLM numbers for the late war colours (they are not alone!).

 

When I got into the Luftwaffe genre I bought various different brands of paints and although the 3 late war colours from each Brand tended to all be roughly similar in that there was a bright green, an olive green and a brown the RLM numbers allocated to those colours by the modern model paint manufacturers could sometimes get mixed up. From memory and without diving into my paint stash I do remember that Xtracolour was one of the Brands that got the numbers mixed up compared with the then current convention. So be aware that one Brand's RLM81 might be transposed compared to another Brand's which just adds to the confusion.

 

To the OP I can recommend Sovereign Hobbies Colourcoats range of enamel paints for colour match and brush painting. They do all the Luftwaffe colours including the late war ones.

 

Duncan B

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Some olive greens are browner than others, as a look at the history of US Olive Drab shows.  Or indeed RAF Dark Green, with a bit of fading.  Or the late war IJAAF colour described as khaki.  Just what colour is khaki anyway?

 

Perhaps the initial mistake was in representations of 81 as a purer green rather than an olive green, and the expectation that there had to be three distinct colours (with further understandable confusions as to which was which).  I have no problems with accepting the suggestion that 81 varied considerably in its "brown-ness", whilst remaining uncertain just how it appeared on different types.  In the case of the Ta.152, it seems clear that it was distinctly green, whereas in the case of the Bf.109K it seems that it was more commonly brown, or at least brownish.  

 

The lesson to the modeller is to look for research on the specific type (or even example) rather than relying upon a simple description by numbers.  And be very cautious about accepting the recommendations in the model instructions, or even the spectacular box art!

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10 hours ago, Duncan B said:

There was (and quite possibly still is) some confusion amongst some paint manufacturers with regards to the correct RLM numbers for the late war colours (they are not alone!).

 

When I got into the Luftwaffe genre I bought various different brands of paints and although the 3 late war colours from each Brand tended to all be roughly similar in that there was a bright green, an olive green and a brown the RLM numbers allocated to those colours by the modern model paint manufacturers could sometimes get mixed up. From memory and without diving into my paint stash I do remember that Xtracolour was one of the Brands that got the numbers mixed up compared with the then current convention. So be aware that one Brand's RLM81 might be transposed compared to another Brand's which just adds to the confusion.

 

To the OP I can recommend Sovereign Hobbies Colourcoats range of enamel paints for colour match and brush painting. They do all the Luftwaffe colours including the late war ones.

 

Duncan B

Testor's "Model Master" line was one of those that (in)famously reversed 82 and 83...

Edited by Rolls-Royce

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Just a side note, the recovered oval panel we have from Sepp Sattler's Ta 152 that was shot down on 14 April, 1945 is dark Green.

    Cheers, Jerry

 

 

 

 

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Late war German greens are a difficult area and, lets be fair, contentious. 

 

I now prefer to avoid using RLM numbers to describe late war colours. Personally I prefer to call them Light Green and Dark Green(!!) plus Braunviolett. This is not lazy on my part or deriving from lack of knowledge, simply less prone to misinterpretation. Antti makes the point about descriptions neatly below, as does Jerry with his reference to airframe pieces

On 12/09/2019 at 08:11, Antti_K said:

 

If you look at the Humbrol's "new" Luftwaffe range, RLM 81 is best described as drab or brown. These paints match with colour charts published for example in Michael Ullmann's excellent books. But if you compare those charts with the old Monogram painting guide, you will notice a clear difference. Reason? Thomas Hitchcock studied real Luftwaffe aircraft and their paint work. Colour charts published later focus more on the specification colours than on observed colours.

 

 

 

 

If I were making the model, I would be guided by Jerry's description from the 1945 Aeroplane Spotter which makes it pretty clear that this would be bright green and dark green.

 

 

Good luck with your build!

 

SD

 

 

 

 

Edited by SafetyDad
Steve's post below!

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Can I perhaps counsel not getting too bogged down in the minutae of late war (any) Luftwaffe camo. I'm not sure the OP @Neil.C was after anything too in depth which was why I answered as I did, Certainly worth taking into account @Jerry Crandall's advice re two greens rather than green (RLM 82) & brown (RLM 81). Ignoring for a moment whether or not there is a green colour RLM83 as seems unlikely, the two greens are a darker & lighter, the later Humbrol colours in the 240 range, list an RLM 82 & 83 & would be a good place to start but if Neil doesn't have them in his range, Hu 116 & 117 would not be too far off either.

Steve.

Edited by stevehnz
spelling :(

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1 hour ago, stevehnz said:

Can I perhaps counsel not getting too bogged down in the minutae of late war (any) Luftwaffe camo. I'm not sure the OP @Neil.C was after anything too in depth which was why I answered as I did, Certainly worth taking into account @Jerry Crandall's advice re two greens rather than green (RLM 82) & brown (RLM 81). Ignoring for a moment whether or not there is a green colour RLM83 as seems unlikely, the two greens are a darker & lighter, the later Humbrol colours in the 240 range, list an RLM 82 & 83 & would be a good place to start but if Neil doesn't have them in his range, Hu 116 & 117 would not be too far off either.

Steve.

Yep. Quite right Steve. Got carried away in my last post, so have edited it accordingly.

 

Thanks for the gentle nudge ;)

 

SD

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On 9/13/2019 at 8:56 PM, Jerry Crandall said:

Hello, I think I've posted this a dozen times, here it is again. The Aeroplane Spotter dated November, 1945 published a report of the captured Ta 152 W.Nr. 150168 the former "Green 9" of Stab JG 301 flown by Willi Reshke. Here is what this report says about the camouflage colors; " The Ta 152 is camouflaged on the upper surfaces of the wings, fuselage and tailplane,, , and the fuselage sides, in various shades of green. On the fuselage the effect is mottled, but on the wings two greens make a zigzag pattern. The whole of underside of this particular machine " Werke Nr." 150168 is sky blue, while the black spinner is enhanced by a white spiral." Later the spinner was repainted red. So there you have it. No mention of RLM 81 Braunviolett at all. It doesn't get much better than this.

     Cheers, Jerry

Thank you Jerry!

 

This is the report I was referring to. Although I was convinced that there was a mention about a "bright" green colour...

 

Cheers,

Antti

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7 hours ago, Antti_K said:

Thank you Jerry!

 

This is the report I was referring to. Although I was convinced that there was a mention about a "bright" green colour...

 

Cheers,

Antti

Antti, I think that particular mention was about Lt Theo Nibel's FW190D-9, brought down by a birdstrike during Operation Bodenplatte. I'm quoting from memory here, but the description said "...the wings are a rather brighter green than is usual for German aircraft...".

Edited by Rolls-Royce

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Hello Rolls-Royce,

 

now I remember that report as well; maybe it was in my mind. Thank you🙂

 

Cheers,

Antti

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I did the original Frog model some time ago and ended up with this scheme below.   The card on the packet indicated undersides light grey 76, mottled Grey's for fuselage 74 and 75 over RLM Grey 02.   Camo on wings dark grey 74 and medium grey 75.   1st Stafel / II Gruppe JG 3.  Defence of the Reich Germany 1945 .   As others have said difficult to pin down the exact colours.   For me it was about experimenting with mottling as I brush paint.

 

20180712_185912

 

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